I don't get the 21. Panzer-- Thoughts after 10 matches.

[Unethical Llama]

... overpriced and under-numbered infantry with the Panzergrenadier. 50 points per squad... You can get a Panzerschreck team that costs 75 points in this phase because they come in on a halftrack with a 37mm AT gun. If you were looking for cheap anti-tank, well, I'm sorry. Nothing in this deck is cheap.

You're ignoring the vehicles they come in, treating them like just one inseparable unit.

This pigeonholes yet another Axis team into trying to maintain long-range firing arcs with AT guns (which can get sniped by tanks and arty) and their own artillery.

You're ignoring the factions entire strength if you think they have to use infantry AT guns and play passively. Do you not know that AP increases by 1 for every 100m closer you are to a target? So those 35 point super speed light vehicles with 20mm cannons can suppress and destroy everything short of medium and heavy tanks all alone. A couple of them together can suppress the hell out of a medium tank and destroy it with flanking shots. They move 35km/h off-road! They shoot at planes! They fire on the move! They absolutely annihilate unarmored targets! You have two cards of 4x! And did I mention they're dirt cheap?

The captured S35 tanks are tactically inefficient since 6 frontal armor only blocks HE--there literally isn't anything in the Allied arsenal that can't penetrate it frontally apart from a few AA guns. 5 accuracy is nice but only 7AP means that it can barely hurt even tanks like Stuarts, and is completely ineffectual against anything better than that.

The s35 tank is extremely effective. Stuarts are the ones that struggle against the s35, not the other way around. The s35 is more accurate and has more frontal armor with the same AP compared to all the stuarts so far other than the 3rds 90 point stuarts, where it is still 1 accuracy better for 1 AP less. They still dominate light vehicles and infantry too.

Look at the Scotts. What can the scotts do to the s35 in Phase A? Their honey stuarts have 1 less accuracy and 1 less frontal armor for the same price. They can lob HE at it with a churchill support I guess? No, their only real option is the 6 pounder AT guns of which they can have 5 maximum, using up half of their AT slots for the entire game. They're forced heavily on the defensive right out the gate just by these tanks.

And those 6 pounders need wide open areas to function. If two 20mm halftracks drive around the corner 800m away and it picks one off, the other will suppress and probably destroy it.

I understand if you don't see AI matches as cause for balancing

AI really can't be used at all. It's extremely prominent in the case of this division.

Playing against the AI is all about countering the AI's cheats, their increased funds and availability. It's about units that are extremely cost efficient on defense and picking off their units that they rush at you suicidally. That's why you find infantry AT guns so effective. That AT gun you plop down in the woods at the start of the game will kill 500 funds worth of random stuff the AI keeps driving into it over the entire game.

That great aggressive push you make where you trade a 20mm halftrack for a stuart? That's excellent, in multiplayer. Against the AI, that's going even or even losing, depending on the difficulty.

 

[IronHat]

8 hours of match and you didn't even bother to play against human?

 

[Radioshow]

I can very easily beat the AI on medium(has no cheats) with any deck against any deck, and I make decks for the AI to make sure they are good. On Hard I have won the 2 games i did with 3rd Arm. and while a bit more of a challenge it was still not too hard. Against a good player it's a totally different ballgame.
I'm a long time wargame vet (3k hrs 80% avg) so its not surprising I can spank the AI up to hard so far.
But it should not be used for balance as its just not a good indicator.

 

[Melidere12]

Stuff

Replay please!

Pedro, thanks!

 

[Ned Stark]

How are you using your Panzer IVs? I'm really struggling with my phase B tank duels - But to be fair I'm not a great player (yet).

I guess the Bef.Panzer variant is allright, but the rest? They just die very quickly.
I actually prefer Beute Shermans as they are more resilent with similiar offensive capabilities.

I do like the Panzer IV C fire support variant for phase A, though - It usually does quite a bit of work.

 

[Fussel]

Why do you get 2x Flammenwerfer in a Kübel MG in phase B? What is this? Who would take them who is not out of this mind in a deck that already struggles with activation points?
Not that I would take Flammenwerfer anyway but this is just one of the many bad design choices I see. 3rd Armored gets 4x flammers in B, 2nd US gets 4x flammers in B, french gets 4x flammers in A (ofc) which are the same as americans but 5 points cheaper (lol).

 

[IS-2]

tfw u roll out KT

Seems like this division is unique in that it's phase A is somewhat strong, followed by a weak phase B and a very strong phase C thanks to KT. On open maps this is a great division, but feels quite bad for 1v1 and more CQC oriented maps. I noticed the 16x mortar uses the exact same damage profile per shell as regular mortars, it can actually destroy AA vehicles, halftracks, and other SPG's quite well in a couple salvos.

The infantry in this deck is extremely weak, but it is a niche deck for fighting in open areas, where it is basically unstoppable once phase C comes around. The King Tiger is just absurd. Once juiced to vet 3 it aims and reloads like it is on cocaine, with 83% accuracy at max range. It can take a full bomb load from a DB-73 and still be able to pop targets left and right. It is almost obscene how easily it can just mow through swaths of the map when given even only a little support. Makes me really excited for the Lehr division. 2v2+ IMO this division is really good, but only in open parts of the map.

 

[Karelian]

Good division for 3v3 and 4v4 games.
Avoid the "halftrack tax" on infantry as much as possible, and you'll be fine.

 

[Village Idiot]

21st. is a good defensive division.

In A you get decent recon & inf and good support for it, 3x1200m AT, a fighter to fend of enemy air and some mortars.

B brings Marders, high vet fighters and brumbars.

C gives three KTs and 88mm flack.

Panzer IV is not good and most AA suck but that is a a german problem, not a 21st. one.

Ps. why does U304(f) PAK (panzershrek transport) have 3 HE value but UE630(f) PAK does not? Afaik. its the same gun.

 

[Vyllis]

Anyone use the 1 star SPW 233 to destroy hidden stuff and support the SPW 222 because they are as fast?
I do not like the support Pz4 much, i favour those 20mm SDFZ 250/9 vehicles.

Another question: is the slow ass motorised 1200 range PAK good to be used and picked up directly at the start or not?

 

[Vyllis]

and some mortars.

Do you favour the SDKFZ mortars instead of the weird (slow) launcher?

 

[Village Idiot]

Anyone use the 1 star SPW 233 to destroy hidden stuff and support the SPW 222 because they are as fast?
I do not like the support Pz4 much, i favour those 20mm SDFZ 250/9 vehicles.

Another question: is the slow ass motorised 1200 range PAK good to be used and picked up directly at the start or not?

Its good when you can use the range and place a command unit nearby. Not so much if enemies get close. Its kinda fragile and lack of HE is not great.

It mostly sucks in the new forest/hill map when enemy AT guns can just pop in and out of forests and you are tied to roads.

 

[Village Idiot]

Do you favour the SDKFZ mortars instead of the weird (slow) launcher?

Mortars for smoke all the way. They are more versatile.

That new phase A launcher is good when things are going well but every time i have bought it when under a lot of pressure it has been a mistake.
Phase B one can be used for smoking but the range is awful.

 

[CyberianK]

Anyone use the 1 star SPW 233 to destroy hidden stuff and support the SPW 222 because they are as fast?
I do not like the support Pz4 much, i favour those 20mm SDFZ 250/9 vehicles.

Another question: is the slow ass motorised 1200 range PAK good to be used and picked up directly at the start or not?

I like the 80 point Pakwaggon very much.
its basically a cheaper Marder but you have to use it on defense Open ground only and keep it more than 1000 away from forests where PAK could be lurking.

As for 233 I don't use it I prefer command tank and cheap leder for veterancy.
I use the cheap 221 though occasionally that comes with a scout for 35. Only when the 222 slots are gone of course.

 

[Fussel]

I like the 80 point Pakwaggon very much.

I replaced the Pak-halftrack and took extra Pak 38's. I feel in most cases it is not worth it and gets stressed out superfast once fired at and you only get one and have only 4 AT slots. I have the 35 point Pak vehicles and Pak 38's in A to save me.
Edit: also interesting that you get like 5xPak38 and 5xPanzerschreck cards although you only have 4 slots.

 

[Vyllis]

Thank you for the answers.

 

[Max_Damage]

I think it is a fast attack division similar to the french (although lacking the income).

double star 222 aufklarer and german stuart equivalent s35 suggest agressive armored phase A with the goal to take ground. Spw231 with 1 star are also good attack vehicles.

Phase B is pretty average (the double star pz4 are cool though). Phase B gives yu powerful MLRS mortars (135 cost)

 

[CyberianK]

I replaced the Pak-halftrack and took extra Pak 38's. I feel in most cases it is not worth it and gets stressed out superfast once fired at and you only get one and have only 4 AT slots. I have the 35 point Pak vehicles and Pak 38's in A to save me.
Edit: also interesting that you get like 5xPak38 and 5xPanzerschreck cards although you only have 4 slots.

I currently often start with (not 1v1):
3x 55 point PAK
1x 80 point Pakwaggon
1x 15 point leader
1x 50 point too expensive infantry
1x 80 point command tank
2x 50 point 222 Panzerspähwagen of death

Yes its extremely AT heavy but it allows me to counter Greyhoundrush and it also allows me to cover my vehicles from danger more easily. I use the vehicles to kill infantry. If theres Greyhoundrush I put in second command tank and more scout vehicles with first money ticks. Else I drop some more infantry and rocket arty.

Had the 35 point paks earlier but I took them out because they didnt perform well often got killed by 50 cals and such. Did they do it for you?

 

[Fussel]

Had the 35 point paks earlier but I took them out because they didnt perform well often got killed by 50 cals and such. Did they do it for you?

If you have them in second row to lets say your command P35 they do a lot of work killing of halftracks (or Greyhounds) and help supressing light tanks so you can either go after them once they fall back or kill them right on the spot. If you win that initial armor blob engagement that often happens (especially with the french) their mobility is nice to push the given space. They are also good for having cheap and mobile at on places you just lightly defend.
That being said though Pak 38's are the much safer bet. But going the safe route doesn't necessarily win you games with the 51% +1 tick.

 

[deXXXa]

IMHO 21. is good for 2vs2 and up. But it is not my first choice for 1vs1, because it lacks in infantry. You will run out of infantry pretty fast, which is not really ideal. But the tanks, air, support and arty options make it a great addition to a infantry-heavy deck in 2vs2, 3vs3 etc.