I don't get the 21. Panzer-- Thoughts after 10 matches.

[Lomak]

Dont bring infantry besides recon-infantry. Thats your mistake...

 

[TGApples]

Dont bring infantry besides recon-infantry. Thats your mistake...

That isn't going to work on many maps and against a lot of people.

 

[CyberianK]

I tried using zero infantry but I feel it works better if you have like 2-3 infantry to use for specific points of the map or general infantry duties. Maybe 2 more in the intial waves depending on how its going.
But in general I agree keep the infantry as low as possible because they are just too expensive for Axis.

 

[Karlburg]

I just bring one or two pz. gr fuhrers to keep the line straight away from my main force.

 

[Fussel]

But in general I agree keep the infantry as low as possible because they are just too expensive for Axis.

Keeping vehicles alive ain't easy either.

 

[CyberianK]

Keeping vehicles alive ain't easy either.

I agree especially if you would have zero infantry.
What often helps is keeping vehicles behind some cover like ahedgerow or something. But then you basically should have an Infantry and AT close to move into the hedgerow when needed. If you just have one Recon around without Inf and AT you can get outmaneuvered. Also the Inf can help kill Recons and occasionally kill AT that tries sneaky stuff or just during a push.
If a game goes well I usually spam some Inf in B scattered across the map to hold all the conquered territory and continue pushing/clear pockets. For holding ground its hard to do completely without Inf imho.

 

[Baron_Mijail]

After testing this deck in numerous configurations over the course of about 8 hours and 10 matches against Medium AI in 1v1 and in team games, with a win rate of about 50%, most of which were in team games with a teammate whom I coordinated with (and who also was running the 21. Panzer). It is evident to me that I do not understand this deck. I am a Wargame vet with about 300 hours in the series total and about 26 hours in SD so far. I understand if you don't see AI matches as cause for balancing, but I would also argue that balance in the multiplayer reflects in AI matches (such as seeing that Axis AI is virtually incapable of beating Allied AI, but correlation doesn't mean causation, of course). I will include a tl;dr at the bottom of this thread, since it's turned out to be quite long.

Everyone on the forums seems to have a fairly positive opinion of 21. Panzer so far (disregarding that one rage thread...), calling it things like "well-rounded" and "competitive". I guess I'm not really seeing why. There are a number of flaws in 21. Panzer's playstyle that make it fairly weak in conquest mode compared to the 17th or even the 12th. I do not understand how you would win with this deck against a competent opponent running either the Scots or the 2nd ID. This is because 21. Panzer's Phase A is, well, pretty bad, and bad in worse ways than the other options for Axis. I'll explain my reasoning.

Disclaimer: There are many, many units on the roster and it's likely I will forget to mention some important units. If I don't mention something, I either forgot or don't think it's different enough/important enough to warrant discussion. An example of this is the UE630 tank destroyer: It's hilarious, but I don't think it is relevant in any way in the current metagame, since it can't even penetrate a Stuart, even though it has a great rate of fire at 12 r/m.

It's true that 21. Panzer gets a few interesting options in each phase. With the current way that conquest works, however, the game is generally won in Phase A and B, with C sometimes not even happening, or generally not mattering enough (as I understand it from what I have read on the forums-- I find Wargame's multiplayer to be irritating to play, but find that balance arguments for multiplayer are relevant for AI matches as well).

Phase A for 21. Panzer revolves around the usage of what are, in my opinion, overpriced and under-numbered infantry with the Panzergrenadier. 50 points per squad (which is your only option; PG's in Kubels come in phase B for some odd reason) means that your infantry presence is virtually non-existent and you will likely lose towns or close-quarters bocage fighting, especially to the Scots and 2nd ID. This is exacerbated by the extremely low unit availability per card.
You can get a Panzerschreck team that costs 75 points in this phase because they come in on a halftrack with a 37mm AT gun. If you were looking for cheap anti-tank, well, I'm sorry. Nothing in this deck is cheap.
This pigeonholes yet another Axis team into trying to maintain long-range firing arcs with AT guns (which can get sniped by tanks and arty) and their own artillery. Unfortunately, 21. Panzer must rely on the mortar halftrack (1200m range) and a 1000m range rocket launcher for phase A. These are fine, and are actually pretty effective, but stretch this broken economy even thinner. Already paying 50 points per PG squad and 85 for a mortar or 100 for a rocket launcher, and the cost of this team continues to rise, which is painful despite their higher income compared to other Axis divisions.
The captured S35 tanks are tactically inefficient since 6 frontal armor only blocks HE--there literally isn't anything in the Allied arsenal that can't penetrate it frontally apart from a few AA guns. 5 accuracy is nice but only 7AP means that it can barely hurt even tanks like Stuarts, and is completely ineffectual against anything better than that. The tank even gets wrecked by Greyhounds. At least the 91st's H35's are cheaper. A better 80 point investment would be to get a Pak 38 and a command unit, or even the mortar halftrack, or perhaps one infantry squad to help plug the lack of frontage you have from how expensive your starting units are.
2 Highlights for phase A are the strangely good AT halftrack S307 Pak with 13AP and 1200m range that allows you to counter things like Stuart pushes and even hurt Churchill V's so long as the enemy doesn't get too close. The Aufklarer comes in on a 2 star SPW 222, which when near a command unit is actually fairly potent, if a bit fragile. However, this is yet another 50 point unit that makes it difficult to maintain frontage, which, if you don't lose units, you will lose territory and thus points, and thus the game.
The Pz. IV C support artillery tank is also fairly effective as well if micro'd properly. A Phase A Pak 43 seems like overkill and this unit, in my opinion, really belongs more in Phase B when you actually might need something with 22AP. That being said, reliance on AT guns is dodgy in online games where arty spam is the dominant meta.

But bad phase A is something we're used to in Axis. Getting hurt feelings from Rangers, Churchills, Scot infantry, Greyhounds, T30's, and DD's is pretty standard at this point. Phase B is where things usually start to pick up for Axis divisions, but in the case of 21. Panzer, well...
You finally get a Panzergrenadier option with Kubels! Except those are better when your income is lower in Phase A. Which is awkward. Your MG42 teams cost 50 points because of the halftrack. Yay.
I'll admit that I am not really a big fan of the Panzer IV tank as it is modeled in this game. They are almost always weakly armored and die to Phase A AT guns or even tanks depending on the model. 14AP is nice, but not losing tanks is nicer, and Allied tanks tend to not have that great of armor anyway (barring the Jumbo and the old AVRE, of course). A Vet 2 Panzer IV option is nice (6 frontal armor though? Good lord), but they still will get annihilated by most Sherman variants and anti-tank of virtually any kind. It is hard to make them work, especially with the lowered turret rotation speed. Phase B is when multiple Allied units with 1200m range appear, and Panzer IV's get wrecked by these. I do like the captured Shermans, but without veterancy they are typically meatshields and their 10 armor really only serves to stop Stuarts and Greyhounds. You can beat enemy tanks, of course, if you use your Pak 43, which blessedly you can get cards of in this phase (but not Phase C, oddly enough). The Marder 1 has good range, but as with most TDs, the stealth is bad and it cannot sustain any amount of fire, making them iffy in terms of reliable performance. Still, it's better than no defense, even if it is 100 points per unit.
Brummbars are brutal and are a highlight of this phase. With 14 frontal armor they are arguably better tanks than your actual tanks. However, they will still die to phase B AT guns.
The phase B artillery is pretty good. The multiple mortar and even the 39H. SPG all perform pretty well for their price, though all of their ranges aren't the best ever.

Then there's Phase C, and it's the part everyone wants to talk about with this division. I don't need to mention it, do I? Let's talk about it.
The King Tiger is a very expensive unit, requiring 3 ticks of income in order to deploy. The vet 2 (vet 3 with commander) version is a dominant force on the battlefield provided it arrives and it cannot be penetrated frontally by anything the Allies have at maximum range. Given enough space, it can and will clean up an entire flank virtually on its own. The problem with the King Tiger isn't its performance, however, or even its price: The King Tiger suffers from the way the current conquest mode works. The King Tiger can and will turn the tide in close games; however, against the Scots and 2nd ID it is highly unlikely that a 21. Panzer deck will survive this long, often being overrun and driven back to the starting point in the first 5-10 minutes of the match. But, if you manage to get here this unit can with even mediocre micro perform miracles and break enemy lines. That being said, if your KT gets knocked out, you are completely and totally screwed and this is surprisingly regular given that the unit has a frankly sad 9 side armor. In my AI test matches, in only about 3 of 10 games was this tank relevant, and that was usually against the 3rd Armored. Most matches are won or lost far before this unit can make a difference. But it is glorious when it does.
And for the record, I don't care if it "only" has 19 frontal armor compared to the Jumbo's 21. Nothing in the Allied arsenal has 19 penetration, so it might as well be invulnerability.
What about the rest of Phase C, though?
You get Pak 40's instead of Pak 43's. It's real weird. You also get access to more Brummbars and the Flak 88 anti-air gun/anti-tank gun. Which is pretty neat.
Artillery rounds off with a 170mm off-map battery and the adorable but frightening H39 tank with Stuka 280mm rocket-bomb-democracy-removal-devices for a bargain at 100 points.
But that's about it. The King Tiger is your ace in the hole, and it can screw you over as much as win the match. It's a bit of a gamble that feels good when it works, and is crushing when you lose it-especially to the tank deciding to spin itself right-round baby right-round in place for some reason.

A note on aircraft: 21. Panzer gets great aircraft options in basically every phase, but 3 aircraft slots basically necessitates communication with a teammate who can actually shoot down Allied planes if you ever want to use your own aircraft. Which is a real shame given that they have the Ju 87G and the Ju 88.

tl;dr/Conclusion:
21. Panzer suffers from the same Phase A woes as other Axis divisions, but because of overpriced early game units has an even harder time maintaining frontage for either 1v1 or team games. Compared to other Axis divisions, 21. Panzer has a hard time responding to threats on multiple fronts and relies heavily on wonder units like a Phase A Pak 43, 2 star 222 AC, or PakTrack to be successful. Its artillery is stellar and the King Tiger is a treat when it works, but none of these things help the income issues this faction suffers from. With a few pricing tweaks and the option to get 35 point Phase A panzergrens, this division could stand out I think, but at the moment it is far too easy to overwhelm with dominant metagame tactics and Allied divisions. I don't understand why people are calling this deck competitive or well-rounded when it is the most all-or-nothing deck in the game now, even more so than the 12th SS thanks to its deck budget.

All this being said, let's discuss.

I think you use very conventional tactics, wich emphasize the use of infantry and artillery.
Like in 12SS, the true strength of this division comes from the haltracks armed with 20mm canon, and you can get 8 of them plus the elite 222's. These things can kill any early tanks at close range and will beat any infantry that is not in dense forest or cities. This means that you can put pressure in a lot of spots and eventually break the enemy lines and exploit the breach with them. Here is where the mechanized infantry comes and prepares ambushes for the possible counterattack.
The best of this tactic is that is very unlikely you will be stopped everywere since the allies lack cheap mobile AT solutions (stuarts are "expensive" to hunt them) wich means that you will probably face sections of the front were there are no threats to your mobile and lightly armored forces.

In phase B beute shermans, brummbars and pak43 in case of jumbo should be enough to hold or not to lose to many ground. PzIV are only useful in ambushes if ypu ask me, because of the experience wich makes them aim first. Marders are good for long range fighting but don't risk them against vetted 76mm shermans or M10.
The main purpose of this phase is to hold the groun and save for the king tiger.

In phase C... well use those übermensch and obliterate anything you see. But don't forget to defend their flanks because you will probably get air-spammed and then tank rushed to try get some hits in your weak side armour.

 

[core.-]

It's the VielFachWerfer and the 2 Star Aufklarer in SPW 222s. I Thought I was going to hate the Bef. Panzer 35, but I have changed my mind on it. It is not as terrible as I first thought and can stand toe-to-toe with a 1 Star M5A1 and win.(or a char )

The infantry is where it really suffers. The Pz. Grens are a decent inf unit but they come in expensive french APC's which.. just make the use of infantry for that deck too costly. I don't mind paying 60 for inf+halftrack.. if they are named Nueve and come with a 50 cal. But 50 for what they get is a joke. Even the Americans only pay 40 for the same configuration and they have better HT's.

So if infantry is a no go, what do you have left? Well, the tanks arent garbage, but use them as close range brawlers and not as long range hitters. The SPW 222's in combination with the Command SPW 222 from the support section give you 3 star SPW 222's. These can kill m4a1s, stuarts, anti tank guns, anything as long as they get to fire first. The problem is the limited availability so use them VERY SPARINGLY.

Now that you have a line of 2 recon SPW222s, 1 bef panzer, 1 vielfachwerfer(To pretty much stop pushes and compensate for your lack of inf), 2 pz grens, and you're 370 points in. You can spend the other 130 however you like, but you are kinda supposed to hold with this deck till B. The lack of cheap units make this a more difficult 1vs1 deck.

Besides what I mentioned, there's ALOT of veterancy to be had, and if used properly, can last you till C without suffering too heavy losses.

 

[Max_Damage]

Its not like its getting any better in phase B though Unlike 17 pzgren you arent getting nebel 42 or 120mm mortars or superstugs and you are very lacking in infantry amounts.

You want some phase A action with 222, s35 and probably recon spw 231 and the likes.

 

[TGApples]

In which instances though is this realy usefull without spending to much early on a single at-piece? Aren't you just better of getting the meme Pak-halftrack?

Colleville 1v1. Park it in the middle. It locks down the entire centre for most of Phase A and provides strong support to the open flank. I think it's worth the points in this case as it'll probably kill a vehicle with its first shot before it is sighted, and will then supress and kill any infantry/vehicles than stray into range. The HE shell is actually pretty damn effective.

Counters will come (unless you're Scots and only have a 700m range mortar), but the amount of space it gives you complete control over until it is successfully countered is huge. If the other guy fails to respect it it'll win you the game very quickly.

Other maps? Not so sure. Colleville is unique at the moment in that two thirds of the map is very open and can be covered by relatively few guns.

 

[MarcoRossolini]

Just played 2 games against the 21st with varied decks. Can't help but pity them facing down aggressive allied pushes I've done. Force the tanks and ACs through and jeep going until you run into the Reichstag!

The deck really toughens up in B-C. Hordes of panzer IVs plus the King Tiger makes it a tough nut to crack. If we had a bad early game we'd lose for sure against late game 21st. I'm eager to try the deck out later on, sadly as usual Axis is stacked so I end up going allies. (not that I mind, 2nd seems to suite my style nicely, such a fearsome early game)

 

[DPK]

I was a little bit disappointed to see that the Brummbär ingame had 25 HE instead of the 30 HE in stream. Haven't tested him out yet but I guess he still wrecks everything.

the 1000m range and 3RPM slow fire rate really hurt the brummbar, it will be shoted and even panicked before it could shoot back, unlike its counterpart churchil V and Sherman 105 as they both have 1200m range....... 1000m range is its achilles's heel

 

[captinjoehenry]

the AVRE has 600 meter range if I recall correctly.

 

[DPK]

the AVRE has 600 meter range if I recall correctly.

My bad, I mean churchill V

 

[Mikeboy]

The only change I think 21st needs is one or two more PanzerGrens per card.

the 1000m range and 3RPM slow fire rate really hurt the brummbar, it will be shoted and even panicked before it could shoot back, unlike its counterpart churchil V and Sherman 105 as they both have 1200m range....... 1000m range is its achilles's heel

Don't use it alone, use it alongside actual tanks, or in cities alongside your infantry but that's fairly micro intensive.

I've found it to be excellent.

 

[TGApples]

unlike its counterpart churchil V and Sherman 105 as they both have 1200m range....... 1000m range is its achilles's heel

The Brummbar is a mix of these 1200m HE tanks and the AVRE, but I'd say it's much more like a long range, slightly lower damage/armour, higher RoF AVRE than a short range, low RoF, high armour Churchill V/Sherman 105/Beute Cromwell. 25 HE is not fun to have land on your head.

 

[Yung Rommel]

the Phase A Pumas are really good too. The vet 2 one with the 9 HE Howitzer + vet 3 222 basically lets you own flanks if you play well.

 

[Melidere12]

Could we perchance get a reply posted by someone who's had good success with the 21st? As I'd really like to get better at using it.

 

[Imaginary Star]

B phase multibarrel mortars and C phase rocket tanks can create a nearly nonstop rolling barrage through the map. As long as you can feed them ammo, that is.
Both their reloads are so fast that if you do not fire them all at once you can pour rain on the enemy constantly.

Very powerful combo.

 

[BrotherPedro]

Could we perchance get a reply posted by someone who's had good success with the 21st? As I'd really like to get better at using it.

Here's my first game with the 21st. I used a modified version of the AC car/HT blitz based on the terrain and units available to the 21st. Seems to work decently enough.

http://files.sd-replays.net/replayfiles/2519083605788252110-496d2a8f-29e5-4db1-b02b-d0be173b44b6.zip