I dont get outposts mechanic (an immersion discussion)

[MichaelJanuary]

So stellaris has this outpost and influence system to claim ownership of systems which may work as a game mechanic, but does it actually make sense from an immersion point of view?

The issue is ... how do we control borders, ownership of resources in star systems, and transfer of ownership during wars.

My view is that from an immersion perspective you should only be able to build mining stations within systems that are in range of your logistical supply network (Nearest colony or space station) much like trade networks in the current game.

Then whoever builds it, owns it.

Infrastructure should be able to be destroyed or disabled during wars, and would have to be either salvaged, repaired or rebuilt by the new owners after a war. This would make infrastructure a legitimate war target, and require investment to reestablish it after a war.

To manage entry/egress into systems via hyperlanes you would build space stations at lane entry points. Thus you could open/close borders, and borders would be based on ownership of the star lanes.

If you closed off a network, you would effectively claim ownership of all planets within that network, and would be free to colonize, or build infrastructure provided it was within range of a space station (trade hub).

The system above does depend on a hyperlane network only mechanic, so might be complicated if alternate drive systems are reintroduced.

Having said that I am in favor of an early game warp drive mechanic..... extremely slow free movement between stars .... so that you can bypass pesky 7-10 system routes to get to a star system that is right next door. It should be slow enough so that hyperlanes are still the default mechanism for shorter trips (3 to 4 systems), and thus also be susceptible to intercepts by nearby fleets, but would allow a way to get past roadblocks like leviathans or other flora (and singular bastions)

In the current game, galactic creatures can be a major pain if RNJesus hates you, and it's also clear that the prevalence of galactic creatures had to be significantly curtailed since earlier game versions to allow for hyperlane only expansion.

I have other immersion issues, but these two are prob the most frustrating for me. Others are pop growth system, job assignation, distance from capital appears to be irrelevant (or abstracted to insignificance).

Really, planets that are closer to your core should be way more stable, efficient, law abiding and politically compliant than fringe worlds a thousand light years away.

 

[Challenge]

I'm not sure how your issues actually break immersion as it doesn't for me.

Building the initial Outpost in a system requires material assets and Influence: physical cost/political cost. You build it; you own it. Collecting mined resources is not a problem because building an Outpost extends your logistics and infrastructure (fueling and processing operations). Trade is depended on building Trade Hubs, which are about commercial facilities and need at least one improvement from OP to Starbase (Upgraded infrastructure). And a "destroyed" starbase becomes an Outpost again, where the winner of the battle can occupy and repair it.

Having a hyper drive interdictor on a starbase prevents ships from leaving a system along any lane other than the one they entered the system from. In effect, closing the system to through traffic from enemy empires -- don't need that many starbases.

Warp tech to move between systems through open space and not along the lanes is available fairly early, at least it usually is for me.

 

[MichaelJanuary]

Warp tech to move between systems through open space and not along the lanes is available fairly early, at least it usually is for me.

Are you referring to jump drive?

 

[Urza1234]

So stellaris has this outpost and influence system to claim ownership of systems which may work as a game mechanic, but does it actually make sense from an immersion point of view?

The issue is ... how do we control borders, ownership of resources in star systems, and transfer of ownership during wars.

How long have you been playing Stellaris, because believe it or not the current system is actually an improvement on what we used to have.

Outposts used to be a constant drain on your extremely limited Influence resources, which imo didnt make sense from either a fluff perspective or from a mechanical perspective. It meant you basically could not use outposts at all.

The only way that previous outpost mechanic managed to semi-function from a gameplay perspective was that space territorial control used to be almost completely defined by planetary colonization, it was basically Space Civ, with planets instead of cities, which only semi-worked because there were so many more planets.
This also makes absolutely no sense from a fluff perspective, since the logistics of gravity wells means that most of the things that someone wants to do in space they should just do and start in space. Wants to build ships? Do it in space. Want to mine minerals and resources for those ships? Do it in space. Want to enforce spacial territorial boundaries? Do it from space.
Planets as Civ 5 cities was awful and made no sense, the current planet and station paradigm makes much more sense, and I applaud PDX for making that transition.

The only vestige of this that still makes no sense is that Habitats are somehow megastructures that require a full AP slot, whereas Citadels somehow are not and are handled differently. Makes no goddamned sense.

My view is that from an immersion perspective you should only be able to build mining stations within systems that are in range of your logistical supply network (Nearest colony or space station) much like trade networks in the current game.

Then whoever builds it, owns it.

Influence in the game's military terms represents the ability of a space-nation to project force. Are you proposing the ability to collect from mining stations outside the scope of your influence and territory? If so, that doesnt seem problematic in the long run, but it does seem... unnecessary. I dont see the benefits of such an redesign outweighing the cost of how much of the current system you would have to rebuild to implement it

Infrastructure should be able to be destroyed or disabled during wars, and would have to be either salvaged, repaired or rebuilt by the new owners after a war. This would make infrastructure a legitimate war target, and require investment to reestablish it after a war.

This used to be very much a thing. The AI fleets in fact used to get very distracted by every single mining and research station on the way from point A to point B. It was never as exiting as you might think. A significant amount of space-combat would have to be redesigned in order for this to be reimplemented in a meaningful way.

To manage entry/egress into systems via hyperlanes you would build space stations at lane entry points. Thus you could open/close borders, and borders would be based on ownership of the star lanes.

If you closed off a network, you would effectively claim ownership of all planets within that network, and would be free to colonize, or build infrastructure provided it was within range of a space station (trade hub).

The system above does depend on a hyperlane network only mechanic, so might be complicated if alternate drive systems are reintroduced.

So you're talking about a multiple competing starbases per system, where ultimate control of a system relies on controlling all points of travel to and from that system?
Well thats very interesting. Reminds me of Go, old chinese game. However, as interesting as it is, I'll contest that its necessarily more or less immersive than the current system. It also conflicts with your other ideas about easier access to alternative forms of FTL.

In the current game, galactic creatures can be a major pain if RNJesus hates you, and it's also clear that the prevalence of galactic creatures had to be significantly curtailed since earlier game versions to allow for hyperlane only expansion.

Earlier versions of the game actually allowed for both Jump drive and Warp Gates as starting FTL alternatives. Everybody had the option of Warp from day1. That FTL paradigm was in place when Leviathans first game out, so your supposition is not true.

I have other immersion issues, but these two are prob the most frustrating for me. Others are pop growth system, job assignation, distance from capital appears to be irrelevant (or abstracted to insignificance).

Really, planets that are closer to your core should be way more stable, efficient, law abiding and politically compliant than fringe worlds a thousand light years away.

Yeah, I'm right with you there. Actually I'm frankly even more fundamental in my criticism of the immersive qualities of the game. IMO planetary colonization should not even be the primary form of colonization, since its considerably easier and cheaper simply to house a space-based culture in space stations. All of your planets and ships having Anisible level instant communications from day1 seems silly, especially when it doesnt relate in any way to your Sensor technology.

Honestly, you have to basically accept that although this game might list Sci-fi notables like Cherryh and Le Guinn in its patch notes, its still 95% inspired by Star Trek, with all the attendant incongruities.

 

[Riftwalker]

Infrastructure should be able to be destroyed or disabled during wars, and would have to be either salvaged, repaired or rebuilt by the new owners after a war. This would make infrastructure a legitimate war target, and require investment to reestablish it after a war.

you can set fleets to aggressiv(or something)e or just click on mining stations to blow them up.

it's really exploitable though, as you can just kinda roll over early game empires putting them way behind you without every hitting any of their actual stations unless it's blocking most of their empire's stations.

 

[MichaelJanuary]

I suppose it's a matter of perspective, or that some things are just too abstract for me.

Outposts come across ti me as being about political control only, and mining stations are uncrewed and just magically add to your global resource pool without distance or location penalties.