I don't get it

[TaichungCanuck]

My kingdom had +1 stability. There had been no wars, no demands on the nobles for a decade. The king had over 2500 prestige, all his vassals were devotedly loyal - the number value put on it was 100 - some of them were his friends. He even gave into every demand they made of him. The relationships between the various counties / duchies and the crown were in excess of +150.

And yet...

They still started a civil war. One revolted. The revolt was put down, but the king took no vengeance - he allowed the noble to keep the lands and titles. No sooner was that revolt put down than another occurred. And another. And another. And another.

I don't mind a challenge. I don't mind when the AI kicks my ass. All I ask is that there be some kind of logic to it. If the nobles are going to behave like that when I'm good to them, why not just treat them like shit? I mean, what's the point of worrying what they think? And if how one treats them makes no difference, is there any real point to the game?

 

[Nick B II]

How many vassals do you have?

If you've got 50 vassals you have 50 chances for them to do something highly unlikely. Such as rebel for no apparent reason.

There's other possibilities. When a new Duke takes over for the old Duke there's a major loyalty hit. If your King is far away (ie: crusading) they get restless.Some of them may have the rebellious trait, and you may have Realm Duress, and that also causes vassals to rebel.

As for why you should treat them good, keep in mind that if you treated them bad odds are you'd be facing several rebellions at once.

Nick

 

[Emperor Walter]

Unfortunatly, I think what the OP is describing is just a problem within DV:The realm duress system, with no way to accuratly represent Civil wars without the entire realm flying apart. Hopefully we will have a better civil war system in CK2.

 

[TaichungCanuck]

As for why you should treat them good, keep in mind that if you treated them bad odds are you'd be facing several rebellions at once.

I have 16 vassals. I treat them well, but still have several rebellions at once. :wacko:

The new (well, newest) duke is the Duke of Munster. He's the king's cousin and when he inherited the Duchy (Lord knows how), it was independent. He offered to become a vassal of the king, is devotedly loyal (100) and relations between him and the king are +152.

This is the guy that started all the trouble. I got a message saying that he was trying to start a civil war. After that all hell broke loose.

Interesting things to note:

- The dukes are the only vassals revolting. Counts are sitting quietly.

- I loaded the game saved from a point not more than 1 year prior to the Duke of Munster and his attempts to foment a civil war. This time, although it doesn't alter relations that much, I started giving gifts of money to my dukes. My revenue is 600 gold per year, so every year three dukes get 200 gold.

Now, I realize that the civil war event may not trigger again or if it does it may not trigger at the same time; however, so far there hasn't been a peep out of my Dukes. Is it possible that all they wanted was a little largesse?

 

[unmerged(144004)]

Does creating archbishoprics instead of duchies help alleviate the risk of civil war?

 

[Olaus Petrus]

I have 16 vassals. I treat them well, but still have several rebellions at once. :wacko:

The new (well, newest) duke is the Duke of Munster. He's the king's cousin and when he inherited the Duchy (Lord knows how), it was independent. He offered to become a vassal of the king, is devotedly loyal (100) and relations between him and the king are +152.

This is the guy that started all the trouble. I got a message saying that he was trying to start a civil war. After that all hell broke loose.

Interesting things to note:

- The dukes are the only vassals revolting. Counts are sitting quietly.

- I loaded the game saved from a point not more than 1 year prior to the Duke of Munster and his attempts to foment a civil war. This time, although it doesn't alter relations that much, I started giving gifts of money to my dukes. My revenue is 600 gold per year, so every year three dukes get 200 gold.

Now, I realize that the civil war event may not trigger again or if it does it may not trigger at the same time; however, so far there hasn't been a peep out of my Dukes. Is it possible that all they wanted was a little largesse?

Most likely explanation is that the Duke of Munster got an event which gave him some reason or another to rebel. Sometimes vassals get those events even if they were loyal before, especially most powerful vassals seem to get those events relatively often (especially during times when there are other troubles), so keeping large realm together can be challenging. Even if event gives duke a rebellious trait he still may be loyal, although he will get a lot more events which give him loyalty drops.

Usually it's worth sending money when your vassals loyalty is below 50 and they have rebellious trait (but you might have to do that quite often). Sometimes it's easier just to let them rebel and lose the rebellious tag and then force them back into the fold (although there's risk of realm duress in that).

 

[TempestDK]

Does creating archbishoprics instead of duchies help alleviate the risk of civil war?

Not really .. they can get the same events that dukes get. Bishops and Arch-Bishops tend to be more loyal than dukes if you have a good piety. But if you get Excom or Heretic traits, you can't see their backs from all the dust in their wake

Also they never hand out titles as they have no demesne limit, and cannot be inherited by an outside realm.

@TaichungCanuck: What is your ruling law?? ... if you have RP, you will experience rebellions, no matter how well you treat your vassals. Even with FC, sometimes a vassal wil lget Rebellious for some reason, and he can then instigate civil war. I believe there are events for the other vassals that can make them join in the rebellion.

 

[unmerged(94161)]

Bishops and Arch-Bishops tend to be more loyal than dukes if you have a good piety.

My piety just tanked and my single largest vassal as an arch-bishop (I think). !@#%!

DV:The realm duress system...

How does realm duress work? I assumed it was a trait you got that caused Various Bad Things? I'm making some government mod, and unless DV already does this, I think it'd make some sense to have Popular Law generate events to eliminate/mitigate realm duress.

 

[Snaake]

One handy and important thing to know is that apparently you can't get realm duress if your rulers diplomacy is 12 or more, or your chancellors diplomacy is 15 or more. Vassals will still rebel and declare independence if disloyal, but the realm duress event won't happen thanks to your courts diplomatic prowess.

 

[TaichungCanuck]

Does creating archbishoprics instead of duchies help alleviate the risk of civil war?

These aren't duchies of my creating. They're duchies that existed when the game started. Interesting thought though. I'll try it out whenever I create a duchy.

 

[Emperor Walter]

How does realm duress work? I assumed it was a trait you got that caused Various Bad Things? I'm making some government mod, and unless DV already does this, I think it'd make some sense to have Popular Law generate events to eliminate/mitigate realm duress.

Realm Duress makes all the vassals of the king get events where they have a greater tendency to rebel. Usually it makes the entire kingdom Implode.

 

[unmerged(94161)]

Well yes, but I mean, what causes it? How do you get rid of it? Through what mechanic does it caused kingdoms to implode?

 

[jordarkelf]

Disloyal vassals can get the rebellious trait. This can spawn an event that gives the realm duress trait to the liege.
Vassals with a liege with the realm duress trait get an increased chance of also getting the rebellious trait, or even directly declaring independence, or war on their liege.

Additionally even a liege without realm duress can see vassals give rebelliousness to eachother (a disloyal fellow vassal petitions you to join him), and any vassal who is rebellious can break free peacefully or by war.

Combine this with the prestige and badboy hits you get if you are at war (with your former vassals), and this can easily lead to a death spiral that will last until the realm duress is over, sometimes with the result that the throne is seized by someone else and many vassals becoming independent, where they war on one another or are gobbled up by other realms.

 

[Vidfavne]

Well yes, but I mean, what causes it? How do you get rid of it? Through what mechanic does it caused kingdoms to implode?

Take a look at event 6451 in realm_disruption_events.txt, there you'll find the different triggers for rebelling vassals.

IIRC, real duress needs to go on for about 4 years before the "end of civil war" event can trigger.

Personally, I think it's silly and I usually trigger event 6459 after I've killed of a few rebel vassals.

 

[Snaake]

The MTTH for realm duress ending is 2 years, so there's a 1/730-chance (or 2 years worth of game time, don't know how long a year is in MTTH calcultations) for realm duress to end each day.

There are various factors affecting this, as always with MTTH calculation, but being at war makes it 10 times less likely to happen (so now, 1/7200 or so), and is the biggest factor.

Add to this that you have vassals declaring war on you every once in a while, and realm duress can last for a few weeks or several years.

 

[unmerged(94161)]

Ah, so it's entirely governed by events then?

See, I'd be tempted, given the recent discussions about different laws, to go in and at a .25-.50 MTTH modifier for said event if you have Popular Law, under the logic that, if you have popular law, your vassals/citizens/whatever can... do something to the government and start feeling less controlled by it. I guess.

Or have a seperate event for ending Realm Duress under popular law. Whatever.

More and more tempted to get DV. New modding opportunities sound fuuuuuuuuuun. Unfortunately, I also just dropped about 400 dollars on textbooks. Oww.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Ah, so it's entirely governed by events then?

See, I'd be tempted, given the recent discussions about different laws, to go in and at a .25-.50 MTTH modifier for said event if you have Popular Law, under the logic that, if you have popular law, your vassals/citizens/whatever can... do something to the government and start feeling less controlled by it. I guess.

Or have a seperate event for ending Realm Duress under popular law. Whatever.

More and more tempted to get DV. New modding opportunities sound fuuuuuuuuuun. Unfortunately, I also just dropped about 400 dollars on textbooks. Oww.

But realm duress comes from disloyal and rebellious vassals and vassals don't like 'popular law'. Popular law is the law that makes your burghers happy.

It would be more logical to give those benefits to feudal contract law, but that would make FC also more of a no-brainer then it already is if you have a considerable amount of vassals.

 

[unmerged(94161)]

True!

Let's say for the sake of balancing things, though, that PL is beneficial under Realm Duress.

Here's another thing I'm not really sure about: When vassals declare war on you during realm duress, is it by event or just by nature of loyalty hits? If it's by event...

1. If your vassal has PL, they're less likely to declare war on a vassal because that causes issues for the peasants and burghers and they're not likely to go along with it. So, having PL either raises the MTTH for the breakaway/declare war under Realm Duress event (if that is how it works) or just prevents it from happening. (Do vassals have their own laws? I always play as King-level guys).

And if you have PL and the peasants and burghers are notably powerful in your capital, you can use them to try and convince one of your vassals to accept PL. Logically it'd be a covert sort of thing.

2. Alternatively if wars aren't triggered by events... Same producing a government change thing, but instead of affecting war, have some sort of event where uh... Burghers force diplomatic negotiations and you keep getting some event where you give up gold/prestige for some chance to end realm duress. I don't know.

Ignoring laws all together...

3. Give an event to rebellious vassals that has a fairly short MTTH. It will fire if they are at war but the liege is not. It will trigger an event for another random vassal (if this can be done. I'm not sure it can or not..? If not, same random vassal) that makes them question whether or not their rebelliousness/the claims of realm duress are justified because of the lack of response from their liege, thus giving a chance to remove the rebellious and realm duress traits.

 

[unmerged(27839)]

Is it possible for me to change the impact from rebellious and realm duress trait? Can I simply delete them?

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

Is it possible for me to change the impact from rebellious and realm duress trait? Can I simply delete them?

The easiest way to disable those events is to go to C:\....\Paradox Interactive\Crusader Kings\db\events.txt and put a # before the line below

#
#
# Crusader Kings Events Database
#
#

event = "db\events\Provincial_Structure_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Provincial_Conversion_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Global_Diseases_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Character_Health_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Character_Development_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Mongol_Invasion_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Religious_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Trait_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Papal_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Claims_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\Crusader_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\templar_events.txt"
event = "db\events\mercenary_events.txt"
event = "db\events\Lordship_Events.txt"
event = "db\events\sin_events.txt"
event = "db\events\improvement_events.txt"
event = "db\events\battle_events.txt"
event = "db\events\bankruptcy_events.txt"
event = "db\events\province_power_events.txt"
event = "db\events\illness_events.txt"
event = "db\events\csc_events.txt"
event = "db\events\evil_events.txt"
event = "db\events\regency_events.txt"
event = "db\events\courtier_events.txt"
event = "db\events\marshal_events.txt"
event = "db\events\chancellor_events.txt"
event = "db\events\steward_events.txt"
event = "db\events\heresy_events.txt"
event = "db\events\chaplain_events.txt"
event = "db\events\court_events.txt"
event = "db\events\pagan_events.txt"
event = "db\events\law_events.txt"
event = "db\events\intrigue_events.txt"
event = "db\events\bastard_events.txt"
# event = "db\events\realm_disruption_events.txt"
event = "db\events\childhood_events.txt"
event = "db\events\rival_events.txt"
event = "db\events\friend_events.txt"
event = "db\events\romance_events.txt"
event = "db\events\stability_events.txt"
event = "db\events\fosterling_events.txt"


# Advances
event = "db\events\advances_discovery.txt"
event = "db\events\advances_spread.txt"

Of course then all the events in that file will be disabled, most of them are 'bad' events, but it also contains the emperor-trait event.

You can also go into that specific event file and delete or comment out (putting a # before each line) the specific events. But the events cover 100s of lines so that won't be easy.