I don't get espionage

[Franton]

Can someone please point out how espionage is supposed to work?

I'm asking because the only option I ever get is getting more intel. I can do that continuously for, like, 50 years, and all I get out of that is higher intel levels, and eventually obtaining some of the numbers we used to get on first contact before 3.0.

I have given up by now. Between how few envoys we get, and the necessity to use them for diplomacy throughout the early game (on highest difficulty setting to not get steamrolled by the nearest unfriendly neighbour, I cannot afford to use envoy for that kind of sillyness over decades!

I've seen threads and even some tool tpis or other in game descriptions mentioning the ability to spy on techs and other things, but I never acquired the ability to do anything like that!

What am I missing?

 

[fusei]

If you don't have the Nemesis DLC gathering information is all you get.

 

[Franton]

If you don't have the Nemesis DLC gathering information is all you get.

Then it's that. I have all the DLCs but this one. Which makes me wonder, why is espionage even enabled when you don't have this DLC to start with!?

 

[fusei]

Then it's that. I have all the DLCs but this one. Which makes me wonder, why is espionage even enabled when you don't have this DLC to start with!?

Since you don't see the full territory of an empire once you've made first contact anymore, that's the new way of mapping them out.

 

[Mastikator]

Since you don't see the full territory of an empire once you've made first contact anymore, that's the new way of mapping them out.

Knowing is half the battle.

 

[Munqaxus]

It's a waste of time, honestly. Hopefully they're flesh it out more in upcoming patches.

 

[Franton]

Since you don't see the full territory of an empire once you've made first contact anymore, that's the new way of mapping them out.

I haven't noticed my maps changing upon gaining intel - only when I approached them from another direction, or by improving sensor tech. Nor is that intel really worth much to me. Certainly not the effort of binding an envoy onto the task of 'mapping' for several decades!

 

[Ryika]

I haven't noticed my maps changing upon gaining intel - only when I approached them from another direction, or by improving sensor tech. Nor is that intel really worth much to me. Certainly not the effort of binding an envoy onto the task of 'mapping' for several decades!

It can be very useful at times. There are certain intel thresholds where more information becomes available. At high thresholds, you can literally see their fleet movements and essentially gain full vision on their territory, but that does require you to spam the operation quite a lot if you're not ahead in tech and can get it naturally through a high infiltration cap.

 

[fusei]

You get some info from various diplomatic agreements and infiltration will be useless unless it is higher than what you get from these, which will take a while.

Here are some interesting thresholds:
30 position of colonies
40 position of starbases
60 see all systems
70 position of fleets

 

[Hunnuli]

My biggest issue is that Gather Intel is for 'basic' intel but needs repeated like 10 billion times. Just having a spy stationed should slowly build up intel as long as your codebreaking/encryption are at parity or better. Active Intel gathering requiring players to constantly redo the same operation over and over again should only be needed when the player wants intel fast or is at a disadvantage on codebreaking/encryption.

As the system is now I don't bother engaging in it. FAR too little reward for the benefits. Particularly when your spy and envoy pool is one and the same(i would personally split the two, that way xenophobes could potentially spy well to better keep the filthy xenos away or other wise mess with them, while still severely limiting their diplomacy options).

We also need more options at reasonable spending levels. The spawn pirate is nice and all(or would be if it would amount to anything more than annoyance and was priced reasonably for its effect), but funding crime or the ilk would also be a solid use of the spy network. Funding expansion of conflicting ethos within the enemy empire would also be fun. All in all if we are meant to engage with the system we need multiple choices to be had at reasonable infiltration levels and energy costs. And these things actually have to have an impact. If you can fund crime then your opponents either need to run more enforcers than usual or beef up their spy security to prevent the funding of said groups in the first place. Still wouldn't be super useful, but it would probably be more engagement than we currently have.

 

[Serenity84]

Which makes me wonder, why is espionage even enabled when you don't have this DLC to start with!?

Because they learned the hard way that putting the basic system into the base game is far better for future development than locking everything behind DLC.

 

[Ussnorway]

Even with the DLC you can safely ignore it and just play the game

 

[A2ch0n]

Even with the DLC you can safely ignore it and just play the game

That is sadly true... I wish nothing more than a strong upgrade for espionage. At least if you pick the subterfuge tradition (which is really good on it's own but five times zero is still zero). Operations need a heavy impact and targeting improvement as well more specialization options (AP i.e.).

 

[Shorr Kan]

I have the Nemesis DLC and still don’t bother with espionage as it’s a waste of resources and player’s time. I just build a sensor array to know all enemy fleet movements.

 

[ruzen]

With techs and listening post its accually quite beneficial to have intel on enemies. Knowing where it has defences or which type and which planet has better defences is usefull when preping an invasion. Otherwise your are wasting few WE ticks.

 

[Lykus Cerebros]

Even with the DLC you can safely ignore it and just play the game

I am sad but that's the case.

Was hoping the subterfuge tree would help, but it was just another baby step.

 

[Franton]

You get some info from various diplomatic agreements and infiltration will be useless unless it is higher than what you get from these, which will take a while.

Here are some interesting thresholds:
30 position of colonies
40 position of starbases
60 see all systems
70 position of fleets

Thanks for the info, but it just shows that it's entirely pointless. It takes way too long to get all this intel. By the time I get to 70 on my nearest neighbour - and only my nearest neighbour - I have 3 or more sensor range from techs or similar, and can get most of that info for free, and not just for one, but for all empires provided I send a ship to their borders!

It would be ok with a pool of 10 or more envoys, but not with just 2 in a galaxy with 20 AI empires! That is insane. IMHO the current number of envoys is barely enough for diplomatic actions. Espionage should use a different - or vastly increased - pool of leaders.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

I would really like espionage to have some teeth. Operations should have greater effects with what they do. You need to have a wider range of operations that can transfer resources to you or allow you to manipulate the pops on other worlds, and to go with that, you need a counter espionage system, something as simple as stacking envoys ala federation envoys to increase encryption while they are active.

 

[Zenicetus]

I have never seen an espionage system "with teeth" in a 4X game that was actually fun t play, because whatever enjoyment I get from damaging the enemy is countered by playing constant whack-a-mole with their spies causing damage in my own empire. It just ends up being a micromanagement hassle. It's impossible to balance that well, or at least I've never seen it done well in another game. So I'm not surprised the devs haven't gone more in that direction here.

IMO, the only espionage that's actually enjoyable in games like this is the passive kind, gathering intel, and that can certainly be improved in Stellaris. It's not as frustrating dealing with enemy agents if all they're doing is gathering intel on your empire.

 

[Cat_Fuzz]

I have never seen an espionage system "with teeth" in a 4X game that was actually fun t play, because whatever enjoyment I get from damaging the enemy is countered by playing constant whack-a-mole with their spies causing damage in my own empire. It just ends up being a micromanagement hassle. It's impossible to balance that well, or at least I've never seen it done well in another game. So I'm not surprised the devs haven't gone more in that direction here.

IMO, the only espionage that's actually enjoyable in games like this is the passive kind, gathering intel, and that can certainly be improved in Stellaris. It's not as frustrating dealing with enemy agents if all they're doing is gathering intel on your empire.

That’s why I proposed the ‘stackable envoys boosts encryption’ method of defence. There’s no whack-a-mole, just if you are getting operations happen against you, switch to defence and put envoys into your encryption. Makes operations less likely to succeed.