I didn't really put much stock in machine empires being weak but...

[Riftwalker]

Frankly, Machine Empires need two things to become more than an exercise in masochism - an increased pop build speed and the ability to take advantage of commerce. It makes no sense that they can't in the first place

HONESTLY, why wasn't trade a thing of gestalts except rebranded and give you different things? like a hive network, that when utilized either creates energy credits from more efficiently utilizing resources. this could be changed to make minerals at half value(maybe quarter), or unity, as the network is more careful about cohesion. wish trade could be somewhat planet based, so you could use it to create amenities. if more complicated systems could have been done, trade could have simply increased planet stability and lowered deviancy from the increased connections.

 

[Black_Shade]

Well.. keep in mind that gestalts get 3 jobs per district where bio empires get 2. Bio empires generally puts this excess pop at things like clerks which takes up a building slot and provides raw resources (energy). That means bio empires by default have less building slots to work with on any given planet.

If a gestalt empire builds up every building slot with specialist buildings as soon as they become available (which strips the raw material producers, as gestalts need 50% more workers before they should switch to specialist buildings), they are going to have a bad time.

This together with the amenity 'bug' that takes up a huge number of pops if you don't micromanage it (then again, why are you playing a gestalt if you dont want to micro manage? ) makes it feel like you are going bankrupt because you are, in fact, trying to do too much with too little.

Gestalts do NOT get 3 pops per district. That's Hive only.

No, you don't. The lack of trade means some planets should be doing nothing but making raw materials. A gestalt empire needs more raw materials than a normal empire, and you need to adjust your playstyle to match. Don't build specialist factories if your basic economy isn't up to the task.

Here's the thing- organic empires don't have to do this "half your planets are worthless and can only produce raw materials". This alone means that Machine Empires will severely lag behind organic empires as the game drags on- the Organic empires will get double the research labs, more alloy buildings, more unity buildings, more everything. Meanwhile the Machine empires are sitting there with half their planets doing nothing just to break even on energy.

 

[Black_Shade]

Y

Frankly, Machine Empires need two things to become more than an exercise in masochism - an increased pop build speed and the ability to take advantage of commerce. It makes no sense that they can't in the first place - why can't they derive value from the same random asteroids and planetoids that biological pops extract commerce from? Surely there's minerals or compounds there the machines would find valuable for some function or other? And why in the world can't you trade with biologicals? Surely the galaxy-spanning AI can comprehend the benefits of engaging in exchange with the biologicals and bringing in those sweet duracell batteries that it is in such a desperate need for? Engaging in trade to get stuff it needs surely isn't beyond the concept of an AI to grasp?

Don't worry, the Paradox balance team is hard at work nerfing machine empire growth even further. Look at those awesome beta patch notes. *mind boggled*

 

[Riftwalker]

Well.. keep in mind that gestalts get 3 jobs per district where bio empires get 2. Bio empires generally puts this excess pop at things like clerks which takes up a building slot and provides raw resources (energy). That means bio empires by default have less building slots to work with on any given planet.

machines only have 2, but never build food districts unless they're really into bio processors.

 

[ShoGuL]

Gestalts do NOT get 3 pops per district. That's Hive only.

Really? How is that in any way balanced? (Hive is gestalt too btw ) You don't get trade, what else can the excess pops do to make stuff out of nothing? No wonder people are going bankrupt...

 

[Black_Shade]

Really? How is that in any way balanced? (Hive is gestalt too btw ) You don't get trade, what else can the excess pops do to make stuff out of nothing? No wonder people are going bankrupt...

It's not. Machine empires are not worth playing at all right now, basically synthetic dawn is a complete waste of money at this point. But don't worry, if you look at the beta patch notes paradox is busy nerfing machine empire growth and bio reactors even more now, just to make sure the final nail is in the coffin for the DLC. I'm sure some balance dev is salty that he lost a game in 2.1 to a DA, and has now made it his mission to nerf machine empires into unplayability.

 

[Less2]

machines only have 2, but never build food districts unless they're really into bio processors.

Which is kind of a problem. Those food districts don't become energy or mineral districts, they just sit there unusable while you pay energy or minerals for what other races got from food.

 

[Nin6]

Machines are fine, you just dont know how to play them. Food can be converted to energy with bio reactors. They have no consumer goods upkeep. Only a mineral upkeep for production, and an energy upkeep, which is comparable to food upkeep for biological. The majority of your planets with be generator planets, because thats your main upkeep. Second is minerals for production of new Machines, research and alloys. You only harvest food to convert to energy at a 1-1 ratio through bio reactors. And you only want to be doing this if you run out of energy districts, or converting starbase hydroponics farms to power.

The main problem, or perhaps incomplete design, is the lack of starbase upgrades. You do of course build solar panels, and hydroponics farms, anchorages and shipyards, but thats it. Compared to biologicals which have trade increasing buildings which boost the modules for trade.

 

[Delthor]

Here's the thing- organic empires don't have to do this "half your planets are worthless and can only produce raw materials".

I'm actually not convinced letting your mining planets grow is optimal for organics, either. Specialized worlds benefit from several stacking bonuses that make them more efficient. In my current run, I'm going to be experimenting with this to see if reducing most of my colonies down to barebones mining colonies with their growth directed towards a smaller number of large urban worlds works better than growing every planet to be large.

 

[Black_Shade]

I'm actually not convinced letting your mining planets grow is optimal for organics, either. Specialized worlds benefit from several stacking bonuses that make them more efficient. In my current run, I'm going to be experimenting with this to see if reducing most of my colonies down to barebones mining colonies with their growth directed towards a smaller number of large urban worlds works better than growing every planet to be large.

What you say about specializing is true for production purposes, i.e. it's beneficial to have an alloy/consumer goods world, or a research world (this one especially if it has any global research bonuses) due to how the bonuses work and planetary unique buildings work. Stacking is always best for these. For raw material production planets though there isn't any harm in dropping down a consumer goods factory or two, or perhaps you turn them into unity worlds with the ministry of culture as an organic civ. I just don't think there's a benefit to preventing the pop growth and not using the build slots, you can always make them productive and if you're maxed out on districts you probably should, as you're paying the administrative fee regardless for having the districts in the first place. The issue is that the economic balance for organics is very easy, you will always have excess of everything so there is no reason not to build on your build slots or allow pop growth, because you'll always have the resources.

Machine empires don't have that luxury, however, as you'll be energy starved the entire game and your own pops are your greatest enemy.

 

[Delthor]

I just don't think there's a benefit to preventing the pop growth and not using the build slots, you can always make them productive and if you're maxed out on districts you probably should, as you're paying the administrative fee regardless.

The idea is to get pops to migrate, rather than stop growth, and to not max out the districts to keep the empire size for your rural worlds as small as possible. Instead direct that pop growth and empire size elsewhere where it can be more valuable, such as an ecumenoplis, large gaia world, or ringworld. Even habitats can achieve a better ratio of alloy foundries/consumer goods factories and empire size than a world that's half rural.

Then again, ringworlds are one of my favorite things in the game, so this whole idea largely comes from trying to figure out how to make a strategy that leverages them effectively. It currently feels like they're worse than a bunch of planets with 200 districts worth of space, since they have less buildings, no gaia bonus, and are very costly to build and fill up. But if you can centralize all your empire size into ringworlds and habitats and convert all your planets to pure mining colonies, it might be an interesting strategy.

 

[Riftwalker]

Machines are fine, you just dont know how to play them. Food can be converted to energy with bio reactors. They have no consumer goods upkeep. Only a mineral upkeep for production, and an energy upkeep, which is comparable to food upkeep for biological. The majority of your planets with be generator planets, because thats your main upkeep. Second is minerals for production of new Machines, research and alloys. You only harvest food to convert to energy at a 1-1 ratio through bio reactors. And you only want to be doing this if you run out of energy districts, or converting starbase hydroponics farms to power.

The main problem, or perhaps incomplete design, is the lack of starbase upgrades. You do of course build solar panels, and hydroponics farms, anchorages and shipyards, but that's it. Compared to biologicals which have trade increasing buildings which boost the modules for trade.

30% of my pops are on generator jobs and i'm barely breaking even with the capacitor boost, do i need 40 or 50% before i can stop using capacitors every few years?

 

[Less2]

Machines are fine, you just dont know how to play them. Food can be converted to energy with bio reactors. They have no consumer goods upkeep. Only a mineral upkeep for production, and an energy upkeep, which is comparable to food upkeep for biological. The majority of your planets with be generator planets, because thats your main upkeep. Second is minerals for production of new Machines, research and alloys. You only harvest food to convert to energy at a 1-1 ratio through bio reactors. And you only want to be doing this if you run out of energy districts, or converting starbase hydroponics farms to power.

The main problem, or perhaps incomplete design, is the lack of starbase upgrades. You do of course build solar panels, and hydroponics farms, anchorages and shipyards, but that's it. Compared to biologicals which have trade increasing buildings which boost the modules for trade.

Bioreactors are awful. Taking up a building slot to convert 3 farmers into energy-ers is really harsh, especially when robots are already needing to build the robot assembly building. Energy upkeep isn't comparable since Food gets farmed 6 per worker while Energy comes in 4.

Starbase upgrades are the last of their problem, they win on those vs. trade. Solar panels are 3 energy apiece, other empires get 1 base + 1 from the module.

 

[happyscrub]

as others have said

1. That's not an energy planets, you got tons of things going on.
2. You didn't manage your pops correctly. You got too many maintenance pops working, Machines don't care about happiness so its wasted on them.
3. Machines run on energy so you not taking into account the energy the pops are consuming on the planet.
4. Planets with high pops don't have high net energy and mineral production because stellaris won't give us those resource buildings. So once you hit the cap of energy jobs, it's all down hill if you keep the planet growing. 12 districts times 2 plus maybe 4 for nexus (I forgot what upgraded gives). That's only 14 energy jobs and that planet has 60+ pops

 

[Black_Shade]

Bioreactors are awful. Taking up a building slot to convert 3 farmers into energy-ers is really harsh, especially when robots are already needing to build the robot assembly building. Energy upkeep isn't comparable since Food gets farmed 6 per worker while Energy comes in 4.

Starbase upgrades are the last of their problem, they win on those vs. trade. Solar panels are 3 energy apiece, other empires get 1 base + 1 from the module.

Trade wins for energy on starbases, unless my math is completely wrong. You get +2 per trade module, and then +1 per trade module with the offworld trading company, netting you 18 energy per starbase. That's identical to the solar panels. HOWEVER, the trade modules also pull all trade within 6 systems of the starbase, netting you a huge additional amount of energy, up to +100 per starbase. There's no way a machine empire can compete with that in terms of starbase efficiency.

as others have said

3. Machines run on energy so you not taking into account the energy the pops are consuming on the planet.
4. Planets with high pops don't have high net energy and mineral production because stellaris won't give us those resource buildings. So once you hit the cap of energy jobs, it's all down hill if you keep the planet growing. 12 districts times 2 plus maybe 4 for nexus (I forgot what upgraded gives). That's only 14 energy jobs and that planet has 60+ pops

That's literally the whole point. Organics can spam pops forever, as their resource balance is much easier to do than the ME. They also don't have to waste half their worlds as "raw materials planets" with only resource production and minimum pops possible. ME must do this or go bankrupt, but they're eating all the admin penalties for the districts without being able to use the build slots since they have to halt pop growth. Organic empires don't have to do this, and can utilize all build slots on all planets, and just run away in tech, unity, and alloy output as the game goes on. ME are 100% gimped right now.

 

[RageOfAnubis]

Machines are fine, you just dont know how to play them. Food can be converted to energy with bio reactors. They have no consumer goods upkeep. Only a mineral upkeep for production, and an energy upkeep, which is comparable to food upkeep for biological. The majority of your planets with be generator planets, because thats your main upkeep. Second is minerals for production of new Machines, research and alloys. You only harvest food to convert to energy at a 1-1 ratio through bio reactors. And you only want to be doing this if you run out of energy districts, or converting starbase hydroponics farms to power.

The main problem, or perhaps incomplete design, is the lack of starbase upgrades. You do of course build solar panels, and hydroponics farms, anchorages and shipyards, but thats it. Compared to biologicals which have trade increasing buildings which boost the modules for trade.

Except bio reactors are getting nerfed to a 2 - 1 ratio. the minerals to food comparison is faulty, food you only need enough to not go into negatives and maybe enough to periodically pay off Marauders whereas machine empires need to produce enough minerals to not only sustain pop growth but to accumulate enough to actually construct buildings and produce essential products such as alloys. Also Rogue Servitors who DO have to produce food and consumer goods say hi.

 

[sterrius]

if Clerks and MAintance jobs became the least priority job (Instead of top priority) this would fix 80% of planet micro patch 2.2 have. And 50% of machine empires energy problems.

Also that planet is too full of maintance jobs. I cheated a little to speed up things but this is how a energy robot planet needs to looks like.

Bonus comes from.

1-> Tech field modulation (+10%). A Tier 1 tech.
2-> Prosperity tree (Must be first pick for machine empires). Gives a Energy adm job and 5% bonus.
3-> building capacitor (15%)
4-> Governor (6%)

I know i know the amenities is too low and stability is going to 25% in the picture. Its just i got bored from waiting the POp´s to come up.

The point is, i can keep 26 from the 35 POP´s working on energy. (3 on adm jobs , 23 on energy jobs, 5 amenities to keep it positive, 3 robot production, 1 police job).

And im not even gaming with traits and upkeep discounts.


Don´t get me wrong, i do agree machine empires need a little buff. But they are far from broken and catch up quickly once you manage the energy problem.

 

[Less2]

Trade wins for energy on starbases, unless my math is completely wrong. You get +2 per trade module, and then +1 per trade module with the offworld trading company, netting you 18 energy per starbase. That's identical to the solar panels. HOWEVER, the trade modules also pull all trade within 6 systems of the starbase, netting you a huge additional amount of energy, up to +100 per starbase. There's no way a machine empire can compete with that in terms of starbase efficiency.

We're both wrong. It's actually 0 trade for Trade Hubs, +2 for each with Offworld Trading Company. So a starbase could produce 12 energy for normal races. However, trade modules cost 1 energy apeice, and starbases 1 per upgrade level. So a fully upgraded starbase for Gestalts produces 18 -4 = 14 energy and for a normal race 12 - 4 - 6 = 2 energy.

As for producing trade on planets, that requires actual investment which usually isn't efficient.

 

[wundergoat]

Trade wins for energy on starbases, unless my math is completely wrong. You get +2 per trade module, and then +1 per trade module with the offworld trading company, netting you 18 energy per starbase. That's identical to the solar panels. HOWEVER, the trade modules also pull all trade within 6 systems of the starbase, netting you a huge additional amount of energy, up to +100 per starbase. There's no way a machine empire can compete with that in terms of starbase efficiency.

Those trade lanes also bring pirates, which means fortress starbases set up for pirate suppression. Also note that optimal placement for pirate suppression probably doesn't line up with optimal placement for empire defense. Relying on trade income also gives you an Achilles heel, since occupying the trade lane cuts off trade. Meanwhile, the gestalt empires can afford to allocate more starbases to anchorages.

 

[wundergoat]

30% of my pops are on generator jobs and i'm barely breaking even with the capacitor boost, do i need 40 or 50% before i can stop using capacitors every few years?

Your example world is not a good representative example. It is not a generator world, it is a developed world that happens to have a lot of generators. With how much other stuff you have on this planet, I would expect it to be consuming boatloads of energy. That is assuming that all the technician jobs are filled.


Not saying that robots couldn't use some tuning.