I didn't really put much stock in machine empires being weak but...

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Riftwalker

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oh boy, I'm barely getting any energy production from my largest generator producing planet.

Year 2268
i looked at my production
I have 250.17 energy produced from jobs
-56.7 from districts
-50.7 from jobs
-106 from pops

Frankly, this is just unsustainable if energy plants can't barely support them selves.

going to see about editing my files to remove upkeep on energy districts.
 

Less2

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60 pops for 73 jobs. Are you sure your robots are working the plants? Looks like you are producing a huge excess of amenities as well, there's little reason to have more than a non-negative number.

I do agree with the sentiment in general though. The random # of districts available per planet can easily screw robots who use energy in place of food and more minerals to grow pops only to find that all nearby colonizable planets aren't rich in what they need.
 

Nostalgium

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60 pops for 73 jobs. Are you sure your robots are working the plants? Looks like you are producing a huge excess of amenities as well, there's little reason to have more than a non-negative number.

That seems like your issue here TBH. My first 'game over' in 2.2 came from building too many buildings, without realizing that this caused my worker pops to promote out of base resource production and into Specialist jobs. This in turn crashed my minerals & food production, and everything else followed soon after. You're almost certainly in a similar position, with 13 unworked generator jobs.
 

wundergoat

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That would be my guess as well. You’ve got 73 jobs, including a bunch of higher strata ones. I would guess a lot of those 38(?) generator jobs are unfilled.

Another point: this might be your planet with the most generators, but it isn’t really a ‘generator world’. By my count, just over half of your jobs are generator ones and the remainder have a high proportion of complex jobs. It isn’t that surprising that your net power output is low, considering that you also have a lot of draws on-world.
 

Riftwalker

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60 pops for 73 jobs. Are you sure your robots are working the plants? Looks like you are producing a huge excess of amenities as well, there's little reason to have more than a non-negative number..

yes because i stripped them off the rest when i noticed i was negative. (it was originally -15)

I don't have images now, because i've removed energy credit upkeep from energy districts, so they shouldn't drain your energy economy now either if they're unmanned as well(which was the case on a few other worlds).

the point is, this is my biggest producing energy world, with just about every planet having energy districts and i'm getting 7-22 energy each month. it's been negative for the longest time, and is only positive because i'm Matrixing a homeworld right now(edit never mind just checked, they're mostly dead now, almost killed them all off before my war was over...).

oh yeah, and i'm constantly using the energy production edict. should throw that in.

38 out of 129 pops are on tech-drone jobs, ~30% of pops.

this is after removing energy district upkeep, and with the capacity overload edict.

this, is me getting barely positive, with me bending rule in my favor and edging out anything i can right now within the rules.
 
Last edited:

ShoGuL

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69 amenities is insane, that means you have 13 (iirc?) pops that are pretty much doing nothing for you.

Put them on energy and you will be fine.
 

Riftwalker

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69 amenities is insane, that means you have 13 (iirc?) pops that are pretty much doing nothing for you.

Put them on energy and you will be fine.

resettle them...? that takes energy credits...

and yes, frankly, the reason i have so many amenities is because i took the Synchronicity tradition tree, and that gives 2 extra jobs to maintenance. this pretty much ruins new colonies. since those maintenance jobs are top priority i either don;t make the building or reduce their priority.

I felt REALLY reluctant to take that slot, but that was before i realized that the maintenance bots have top priority...
 

Delthor

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A tech-drone starts out producing 4 energy. Machine pops cost an upkeep of 1 energy and the district is 1 energy for four jobs, so net increase is about 2.75 energy per tech-drone. Every tech and tradition that improves pop output or reduces pop/district upkeep will make this better. An energy nexus alone bumps it up to 3.75.

Farmers produce 6 food. They also cost 1 food, 1 consumer good, and 0.25 energy from the district upkeep. 1 consumer good is about equal to 1 mineral, but with some extra costs in processing, so let's be conservative and call it 1.25 times the normal resource. That means a farmer's net production is 4.5.

Machine pops require less housing if I recall correctly, but I'm not sure...

Either way, it does feel like farmers are way better at supplying the food costs than machines are at supplying energy. And with district limits, it does seem like machine upkeep is way harder... Another issue to add to the pile of challenges playing machines...
 

Riftwalker

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Machine pops require less housing if I recall correctly, but I'm not sure...

they use 1 housing actually. I was surprised as well, city districts also don't come with jobs :/

You can go to the population tab and disable jobs you don't really need. I agree though machine empires need a lot of energy and this needs to be tweaked.

yeah, it's just WAY more micro than my normalish empire from my last game.

like seriously, it's doable, but I feel like i'm a penny pincher to barely fund my navy.
 

somapopper

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I don't know if the balance is right or not for machine empires, but calling that an "energy planet" is a stretch, look at all the stuff you produce there. Only a 3rd of your employed pops are actually working on energy.
 

Riftwalker

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I don't know if the balance is right or not for machine empires, but calling that an "energy planet" is a stretch, look at all the stuff you produce there. Only a 3rd of your employed pops are actually working on energy.

very few other colonies are developed beyond 10 or so bots, i have one that had robots on it when i took it, it's actually called a generator world, and it produced a 1/3 currently of what that planet produces now.
 

somapopper

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very few other colonies are developed beyond 10 or so bots, i have one that had robots on it when i took it, it's actually called a generator world, and it produced a 1/3 currently of what that planet produces now.

Oh, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that's a very developed world with 73 jobs that produces a ton of stuff. On my "energy worlds" I have about 5 guys not in power plants and no cities if I can help it. That's not really a point about if the upkeep on machine empires is too high.
 

Delthor

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Oh, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying that's a very developed world with 73 jobs that produces a ton of stuff. On my "energy worlds" I have about 5 guys not in power plants and no cities if I can help it. That's not really a point about if the upkeep on machine empires is too high.

I think this is a big key to playing in the new economy. You need to keep rural and urban planets small, or they start using most of the resources they're supposed to be producing. If a planet is an energy planet, food planet, or mining planet, you really don't want any city districts. Use only the rural districts and fill in the buildings with the needed basics like the +resource buildings, amenities, and maybe some rare resource generation, plus a bit of housing if needed. Maybe this means you don't cap out the district count, but that's perfectly fine.

Don't build cities and start developing those planets to be larger. You're better off creating specialized urban worlds for that. Ecumenoplises, habitats, and ringworlds are all great for fulfilling the urban parts of things (with ringworlds being the one thing you want to split half and half since it's impossible to go fully urban with 50 districts). Machine and hive empires get the bonus of their own special worlds, which have the massive buff of removing district limits, meaning you can fully dedicate a particular world to energy, minerals, or food if you so desire.
 

Skydrake

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Yeah, Machine Empires feel pretty borked. You need insane amounts of micromanagement, edict-running, pre-planning, pop-optimizing and penny pinching to barely eke out a living. The amount of work that would see you become the richest bastard in the universe with a fleshy empire and have you rolling in triple-digit income can barely keep machine empires afloat. And sometimes even that won't save from dipping into red in your baseline energy or even crystal production, because you need to funnel those into pop production as well.

And even if you do all of that, there is simply no pay-off. You start painfully slow - your robot pops grow slower than bio pops (which makes no sense to me, surely it's faster to cobble together a machine than it is to make a baby and wait until it's born and reaches majority?), you early game mineral production is abysmal because from day1 they are being consumed for pop production, your early research/unity/alloy/whatever production is abysmal because you can't afford to run any of those buildings - all of your slooowly spwaning pops are needed to run the basic energy and mining districts to keep your head above water in basic resource production. You also need a dedicated building slot and workers to actually grow your population, for added insult, further putting you behind every biological civilization, who certainly don't need to build "breeding centers" and assign workers to them to get growth going.

You are literally at your neighbor's mercy for a very, very long time because you can't physically afford to actually do anything, besides grow at an abysmal pace and pray they won't decide to attack you and wipe you out, which they can at virtually any point and there is nothing you can do to stop it. And of course this is all the more likely to happen because everyone hates you by default for your government type. Your early game literally consists of waiting and praying. You are also much more screwed by the available planets around you. A couple of garden worlds with heavy emphasis on farming districts, or worlds with heavily blocked energy tiles? Congratulations - you are screwed, while a biological civ can easily work around that and generate credits through trade.

And even after you slog through all that crawling early game, if by luck you didn't get attacked and conquered, after you robomod your pops and manage to claw your way to relevancy (by which time you could have become a local superpower with a biological pop with the same amount of effort) ... well, it's not like there exists any real payoff. Machine Worlds, when you finally manage to get them up and running, are kinda nice but it's not like they will actually boost you enough to help you overtake the biological pops. More like they will put you on equal footing, finally ... except your start is abysmal compared to theirs, so you are still behind regardless. Where's the payoff for playing an empire that has worse relations with everyone by default and can't take advantage of commerce?

---

Frankly, Machine Empires need two things to become more than an exercise in masochism - an increased pop build speed and the ability to take advantage of commerce. It makes no sense that they can't in the first place - why can't they derive value from the same random asteroids and planetoids that biological pops extract commerce from? Surely there's minerals or compounds there the machines would find valuable for some function or other? And why in the world can't you trade with biologicals? Surely the galaxy-spanning AI can comprehend the benefits of engaging in exchange with the biologicals and bringing in those sweet duracell batteries that it is in such a desperate need for? Engaging in trade to get stuff it needs surely isn't beyond the concept of an AI to grasp?

Commerce can be lucrative as hell - you can easily work up to 4-digit numbers in terms of income from it. That's a huge load of almost-free energy that biological empires get to take advantage of, while machines have no equivalent to it, and this is probably where much of the huge economic disparity comes from.

I love playing as empires, I love playing as megacorps, I used to love playing as machines as well ... but as of right now they are simply not on the same scale as everyone else in the game, and whereas everyone else can have meaningful early game choices and interactions, a 2.2 Machine Empire early game is the most abysmal experience I have ever had in Stellaris, and the feeling of having started out as a gimped cripple never really goes away. Did they even test this state of balance before shipping it? Because I would be very surprised if the answer is anything but a flat "no".
 

Less2

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I don't know if the balance is right or not for machine empires, but calling that an "energy planet" is a stretch, look at all the stuff you produce there. Only a 3rd of your employed pops are actually working on energy.

You have to develop planets eventually though. Either those pops would be on that planet or on another planet running the exact same jobs, at the same energy cost.
 

ShoGuL

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yeah, it's just WAY more micro than my normalish empire from my last game.

like seriously, it's doable, but I feel like i'm a penny pincher to barely fund my navy.

Both hive minds and robot empires need this micro. It completely ruins your economy every time you build a maintenance depot otherwise. Paradox needs to fix it so maintenance pops are highest priority UNTIL amenities > 0, then it should be lowest.

In the current version of the game, you basically spend the entire game tabbing through planets to see if A) Amenities are at 0 yet, B) There are jobs for new pops and C) There is housing on the planet.

The last two can be seen at a glance on the resettlement screen.. adding amenities there would fix the micromanagement problem too. But if you don't disable amenity bots, you are going to gimp yourself thoroughly. Don't complain the style is crap if half your pop on some planets are literally doing nothing but eating upkeep....
 

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You have to develop planets eventually though. Either those pops would be on that planet or on another planet running the exact same jobs, at the same energy cost.

No, you don't. The lack of trade means some planets should be doing nothing but making raw materials. A gestalt empire needs more raw materials than a normal empire, and you need to adjust your playstyle to match. Don't build specialist factories if your basic economy isn't up to the task.
 

Less2

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No, you don't. The lack of trade means some planets should be doing nothing but making raw materials. A gestalt empire needs more raw materials than a normal empire, and you need to adjust your playstyle to match. Don't build specialist factories if your basic economy isn't up to the task.

The game is about pop growth. All planets need to be growing pops all the time until they've capped out. This means all planets need to eventually have production of advanced goods and research, since the number of districts is capped way below the number of pops you can have. The OP's problem is simply that he isn't allocating jobs correctly, which should be away from amenities and towards energy. Unfortunately the UI for allocating jobs at the moment is complete ass.
 

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The game is about pop growth. All planets need to be growing pops all the time until they've capped out. This means all planets need to eventually have production of advanced goods and research, since the number of districts is capped way below the number of pops you can have. The OP's problem is simply that he isn't allocating jobs correctly, which should be away from amenities and towards energy. Unfortunately the UI for allocating jobs at the moment is complete ass.

Well.. keep in mind that gestalts get 3 jobs per district where bio empires get 2. Bio empires generally puts this excess pop at things like clerks which takes up a building slot and provides raw resources (energy). That means bio empires by default have less building slots to work with on any given planet.

If a gestalt empire builds up every building slot with specialist buildings as soon as they become available (which strips the raw material producers, as gestalts need 50% more workers before they should switch to specialist buildings), they are going to have a bad time.

This together with the amenity 'bug' that takes up a huge number of pops if you don't micromanage it (then again, why are you playing a gestalt if you dont want to micro manage? :p) makes it feel like you are going bankrupt because you are, in fact, trying to do too much with too little.