I can't handle the institution mechanic anymore

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Nostalgium

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Usually Europe pulls ahead too fast but then for some reason Asian countries can catch up in the end game. That’s ahistorical as the Europeans pulled ahead at the 1600-1700 period IRL. I’d propose making Renaissance no longer Europe locked, but enlightenment and global trade should be Europe locked instead.
The problem isn't where it begins, it's just down to spread. Towards the endgame, all nations will have all institutions embraced, whether through natural spread or dev pushing, causing tech parity towards the end when no more institutions are required and nations can put all their effort into teching up.

So long as you can summon the institutions through dev pushing, prioritizing or even locking in where they can spawn is only going to be a minor hinderance. I feel like devpushing institutions should be replaced by something else. Perhaps even hard limit it to Share Knowledge, but enable asking for Knowledge Sharing as well, rather than just offering. AI acceptance would require friendly, or even Allied relations, and perhaps even a monthly mana tribute in addition to gold could be considered. Perhaps it could even result in a modifier to the Sharer's trade power in the region: "Sure, we'll sell you advanced technology, but we want monopoly on your silk exports."
 
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The problem isn't where it begins, it's just down to spread. Towards the endgame, all nations will have all institutions embraced, whether through natural spread or dev pushing, causing tech parity towards the end when no more institutions are required and nations can put all their effort into teching up.

So long as you can summon the institutions through dev pushing, prioritizing or even locking in where they can spawn is only going to be a minor hinderance. I feel like devpushing institutions should be replaced by something else. Perhaps even hard limit it to Share Knowledge, but enable asking for Knowledge Sharing as well, rather than just offering. AI acceptance would require friendly, or even Allied relations, and perhaps even a monthly mana tribute in addition to gold could be considered. Perhaps it could even result in a modifier to the Sharer's trade power in the region: "Sure, we'll sell you advanced technology, but we want monopoly on your silk exports."
I didn’t know AI devved instititions. That’s weird, maybe they shouldn’t be able to.
 

Nostalgium

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The AI should be able to do literally anything the human can. If it's a game mechanic that's bad for the health or vision of the game if implemented as intended (i.e. not by some zany exploit or convoluted strategy), the human player should also not be able to.

As an aside, I'm not sure if the AI does it on purpose, but they do regularly dev provinces to 35+ which is enough to summon an institution.
 
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grommile

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As an aside, I'm not sure if the AI does it on purpose
It does, as far as I know – my understanding is that institution pushing is the only time the AI is allowed to exceed "double or +10, relative to game start".
 
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EarlKonrad

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I didn’t know AI devved instititions. That’s weird, maybe they shouldn’t be able to.

They don't go out of their way to, they just unintentionally do. To be more precise, the AI will Dev provinces up to 20/30 Dev (don't exactly recall the specifics). In doing so some institutions will naturally start spreading.

Couple this with random events that can add institution spread or knowledge sharing and you get passive institution spread on ROTW without player intervention. Granted, this is incredibly slow and still the three biggest factors for AIs getting institutions are: 1) When an institution spawns within an AI border; 2) When an AI accidentally fulfils the conditions for AI spreading (i.e colonialism) and; 3) Bordering a Human player who has already embraced an institution.
 

Mukaparska

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Thank you for all the replies guys. Been a while since I visited this forum last time.

So I guess it has now been established that it's a divisive topic. Most see the issues with the institutions and ensuing tech parity, but still support the institution system. After all, it's more dynamic and if it worked like it should, could provide interesting alternate history scenarios. On the other hand, the old system was simple, functional, and while being unfair for the ROTW, tended to produce more believable endgame and technological superiority of Europe.

So, how should we start solving this problem? I'm not much of a modder myself, but this issue has now grown to such magnitudes in my head that I feel nothing but rage, and this game is unplayable unless there's a fix. Either made by someone else, or then by me. Personally I'd be perfectly fine with the old technology system. Maybe Westernization mechanic should be improved, and the army units should be Westernized as well. But maybe a hybrid system would be the most reasonable option. Institutions would still make an impact, but there would also be a tech group penalty and the ability to Westernize. I think such system would produce the most "historical" results without completely railroading the tech evolution.

I made a strawpoll with three options: https://www.strawpoll.me/45996606

1. Reworked institution system.
2. Old tech system.
3. Hybrid system.

Here's a screenshot from the good old days for nostalgia!
8WQkT2L.jpeg
 
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Kapi96

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OK so China had similar designs. That is a fact.
Also the development of the European printing press sparked a unique spread of knowledge and was a contributing factor to the further technological development of Europe.

So for some reason despite having the same technique in one area it didn't result in nearly the same fundamental shift as in the other.
So yeah you could make a case, but it's fundamentally flawed because there is a precedent for it and it did not happen. There was a fundamental difference in society which made European development unique.

Another example basic ass Steam engines were also known in Ancient Rome and Greece but didn't lead to the industrial revolution due to economic and social factors.
There was more incentive for it to become widespread in Europe due to the religious reformation. They had to print that religious propaganda!
I don't see any reason there couldn't have been a need for propaganda to be printed en masse against the Ming, Confucian/Buddhist ideas or even an invading power eg. Mongols, Manchu or Japan.

It definitely could have happened, so making it have a 0% chance of happening in game is simply unrealistic.
 
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Zaddy

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It seems to me like the desired outcome for many in this thread is that the AI should essentially throw (even more than it already does) and invest in ideas first over tech. Currently it does the opposite, which is generally superior in terms of intelligent decision-making, for miltech at least.

If it prioritized ideas heavily, the tech deficit between Europe and ROTW would grow, as non Europeans are generally at a several thousand monarch point disadvantage.
 

Lykus Cerebros

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There was more incentive for it to become widespread in Europe due to the religious reformation. They had to print that religious propaganda!
I don't see any reason there couldn't have been a need for propaganda to be printed en masse against the Ming, Confucian/Buddhist ideas or even an invading power eg. Mongols, Manchu or Japan.

It definitely could have happened, so making it have a 0% chance of happening in game is simply unrealistic.
OK so again. The printing press is not guaranteed to spawn in Europe.

Also i am gonna point towards the fact that while China had all off these (Invasions, religious minorities) their printing press design were never improved to compete with the Gutenberg model.
So I have an historical example that it in fact didn't happen.

Another example would be manufactories and the private sector. China had the first manufavtories in the world. Highly effective at mass production. Sometimes license were given out to private individuals to provide the same goods. So kind of a proto Capitalist/ Manufacturing system.
But if these got to efficient by introducing some kind of reform they got shut down.

So I would argue it's Manufactories should not spawn in China either.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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I honestly don't think the status quo is that bad. Its probably too harsh on south-east Asia, too forgiving to Russia.
It's functional. It's not great, but I can think of a few things offhand the game needs help with way more (QoL inputs, AI algorithm for peace deals, stabhit offers, TAG magic rework, ZoC functionality/fort siege duration, importance of naval advantage as examples).

My ideal for tech while keeping the generic 1-32 model would be to have different conditions for each tech group to remove penalties in each era. But I don't think the game needs that or any similar tech rework urgently at all.
 
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Jomini

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There was more incentive for it to become widespread in Europe due to the religious reformation. They had to print that religious propaganda!
I don't see any reason there couldn't have been a need for propaganda to be printed en masse against the Ming, Confucian/Buddhist ideas or even an invading power eg. Mongols, Manchu or Japan.

It definitely could have happened, so making it have a 0% chance of happening in game is simply unrealistic.
The simplest one was that effectively no one could read it. Nor was there much incentive for the common man to learn to read.

Christianity, and a lesser extent Islam, had religious motivation to learn to read in order to be more pious and read the scriptures. Part of the crusading mentality was a massive upswing in devotion by the laity and the use of various prayer books, devotional material (e.g. biographies of Saints), and even the Vulgate Latin Bible among those learning the classics. By the time the printing press arrives, Europe has higher literacy rates than China.

Which makes sense. Such holy scriptures as Confucianism had, need not be learned by the masses. And with the examination system education was something to be bought for a reward, mass literacy would only have greatly increased the competition in an already brutal competitive field (and when Christian missionaries did start mass literacy campaigns in the 19th century, China's examination system started failing more people and exhibiting more corruption that helped spark the bloodiest conflict before the World Wars). In general, most societies in history had stable low literacy rates, particularly among the common folk, and no incentive to change that.

Islam might have had some incentive, but the premium placed on raw memorization and the institutional preference for scribed copies (along with an alphabet optimized for cursive writing rather than printing for the holy language) drastically reduced the appeal of printing in an Islamic context (so much so that more Qurans were printed in Venice than the entire Islamic world combined in the early era).

And the reality is that even with the Reformation raging, and pamphlets printing out in mass runs, most European printers went broke. You need an extremely high volume of demand for printed work to make the industry flourish. And while lower cost printing can increase demand, it does so but very slowly. Instead Europe started the 15th century with much higher literacy thanks to the increasing fervor of the laity that both powered the Hussites and increased use of devotional literature. And once Hussite ideas about the primacy of scripture were more broadly adopted, there was a real and uneconomical push for mass literacy. The sheer volume of popular text written for the (Counter) Reformation is likely more than all popular text written in the history of the world before then combined.
 
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Kapi96

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So I have an historical example that it in fact didn't happen.
And I have a historical example that Byzantium didn't exist after 1453. Or that Burgundy ceased to exist as an independent state. Or that the Yuan dynsaty was never resurrected. And so on. The game doesn't exactly follow history, possible alternative outcomes are possible, there's no reason institutions should be the one exception to that.
 
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