I can't handle the institution mechanic anymore

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TheMeInTeam

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It isn't just "an achievement". Dozens of achievements require conditions that weren't going to happen in real history with actual historical constraints/rules. The game's rules/expansion mechanics/tradeoffs are all different from history to a comical degree as well (not just technology). Expecting historical outcomes in that environment is silly and completely inconsistent with not just the design for achievements, but also for OE, AE, core cost, and economic management (to name only a few examples).
 
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Lykus Cerebros

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Didn't, but could have.

Besides, I'd argue that the printing press taking off in China was much more likely than some other stuff that can happen in the game, so why shouldn't that be able to happen too?
OK so China had similar designs. That is a fact.
Also the development of the European printing press sparked a unique spread of knowledge and was a contributing factor to the further technological development of Europe.

So for some reason despite having the same technique in one area it didn't result in nearly the same fundamental shift as in the other.
So yeah you could make a case, but it's fundamentally flawed because there is a precedent for it and it did not happen. There was a fundamental difference in society which made European development unique.

Another example basic ass Steam engines were also known in Ancient Rome and Greece but didn't lead to the industrial revolution due to economic and social factors.
 
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FantasticFwoosh

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Now here is a take I really, really like. As for tech trees, I like this too. They could look to I:R for inspiration here - that tech tree functions like a double-purpose for idea sets too, and your tech path is damn well near more important than the nation you chose, and has significant implications for how you play.

Most of the western pips are built in a way they come and go between strengths at different parts of the game, Eastern European is a middlegame cavalry powerhouse for example, and Muslim/Anatolian stomps hard early, but combat width rank file reinforced engagements creates the questionable impression that other non specialised tech groups can only suffice as morale meat-bags to grind the enemy down lategame where Western is dominant. But as of the likes of modded EU4 (Anbennar) you can completely overhaul your military with a few essential cultural shifts and decisions to alter your archetype with the attached modifiers (techgroups across broad racial and cultural lines of humans to monsters) and it makes each one more unique even with timeline powerspikes & decline and how the country you play affects it.

Hybrid techgroups would be interesting to see. Bringing back up Tokogawa muskets, how would the EU4 flow of the game fare if by events some units with a fire-pip advantage emerged between the japanese daimyo's with offered westernized tech. Maybe it wouldn't actually make them fight any better, if Samurai units simply have more shock value to musketfire, then the phases will be decided by how well the leaders are attributed over a total of pips (which you can still win by combat width massing), but it wouldn't be a nessecity to follow unless you wanted to keep up to directly counter westerners already set onto that track-path in the progression curve.

Changes to national-tech to make it tech-group individual seems nightmarish i suppose for workload to chronologically justify and line up to the existing generalist techtree, but if you go down this path it least helps disperse a appropriate time to allocate who can build war-canoes and when without painting broad-strokes, and what's not to say it couldn't eventually lead to a dissolution towards a civilization-gameplay special unit being put into every couple number of techs, alongside the buildings and ship-designs we already work towards.
 
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Lykus Cerebros

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@Lykus Cerebros why colonialism can spawn in Asia or Africa? You can make the same argument about difference in society
In My opinion it's shouldn't spawn outside of Europe, but it's less impactful in my opinion since I feel like its less Colonization and more Exploration across Oceans along non-established routes. The Polynesians had similar voyages although for different reasons.

The problem is that all of the Institutions are unique European events or movements which took place for a myriad of reasons.

Also Printing press can spawn outside of Europe. It's just heavily weighted towards Germany. In the Strange Screenshot thread there is one example where it spawned in SA.
 

Lykus Cerebros

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The question will always be how much historical should the game be? For me it's should be more historical and I enjoyed the westernization in EU3. It showed that a countr could undergo a transformation to adopt technology and reform society against traditional forces. This is exactly what Japan did and it worked. In a way this was even more flexible than with the current system. Because at the moment your troops will always be inferior which also doesn't make sense and most countries wanted to reform their armies specifically.

I can see why people want a more sandbox version of the game, but that's not for me.

I don't see and major changes to the current system anyway, but hope that EU5 will create something similar to EU3.
 
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TheMeInTeam

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So yeah you could make a case, but it's fundamentally flawed because there is a precedent for it and it did not happen. There was a fundamental difference in society which made European development unique.
What happens in the game is different from what happens in history, though. To the extent that you cannot assume this "fundamental difference in society" exists in the same places for the same reasons. The further past 1444 you go, the more extreme this point is.
 
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necro84

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@Lykus Cerebros Westernization was good for Asian/African/American countries but look at country like Hungary. Hungary has eastern tech group but just 7 years before game start Hungarian king was HRE emperor and is Hungary that much different than Austia to have 20% more expensive techs?

Tech cost has ahead of time penalty and eastern technology could add few years to that year instead of increasing cost by flat 20% even when you aren't ahead
 
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Nostalgium

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Are you sure? I think ships used by Zheng He could be better than European. Just look at the model of XV century Chinese treasure ship - each ship had a crew of 500-600 men. European carracks were much smaller. Mid XVI century Galleons were similar in sizeView attachment 819368
Yes, I'm sure. The Treasure Ships were huge, but they were very, very slow. Nearly four times slower than a carrack's average under favourable condions. This holds true even for the later, larger ships of the line, which were of comparable size but also significantly faster than Treasure Ships. I love them as much as the next guy, and a China which didn't end Zheng He's expeditions but continued them, even after his death, is one of my favourite "what ifs" of history, but Europeans did build significantly faster, more efficient ships.
 
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Lykus Cerebros

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@Lykus Cerebros Westernization was good for Asian/African/American countries but look at country like Hungary. Hungary has eastern tech group but just 7 years before game start Hungarian king was HRE emperor and is Hungary that much different than Austia to have 20% more expensive techs?

Tech cost has ahead of time penalty and eastern technology could add few years to that year instead of increasing cost by flat 20% even when you aren't ahead
Sure it's not a perfect system and I never liked the arbitrary separation into east and western Europe east of the HRE but I still prefer westernization mechanic itself.

You could supplement it with a slower cultural diffusion akin to how institutions spread for slower changes and maybe reduced tech costs.

Actually as I think about it what I'd change is the connection with the different societal axis. Given how you needed centralization and innovativeness at a certain point it made them kind of prederminted and that felt boring.
 

jamal bakr

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But that's exactly when they shouldn't be at their weakest.

The tech and organization disparity came to be over the time span of the game with Europe gaining the upper hand only at the end of the games tome span.

So it's exactly the wrong way if you are able to dominate Mali early when actually this should be a time where the technology levels are more or less equal (at least less extreme).

I think injecting historical realism into conquering the interior of africa for this period would not be pleasing to you; it would involve quartering the supply outside of the coast and uncapping attrition, and then giving the provinces permanent unrest malus.


I also see no reason why Europe should get priority for the later ones either. It would be bad for gameplay reasons and ahistorical. Europe was never "destined" to be technologically advanced compared to Africa/Asia etc. It would be silly to try and force it to be that way every single game.
Abstractly I'd have all of them start in europe, but now cause institutions to flow into trade companies with a +30% institution bonus; in exchange I'd have them able to be converted but with double unrest penalties as well as harming local relations with other members of that religion, to simulate the destabilizing effects of missionaries in Japan or Goa.

From a game perspective, I dont' think it would change much; the AI dev pushes now, which more than anything is the reason for tech parity in the mid game.
Are you sure? I think ships used by Zheng He could be better than European. Just look at the model of XV century Chinese treasure ship - each ship had a crew of 500-600 men. European carracks were much smaller. Mid XVI century Galleons were similar in sizeView attachment 819368

This issue is very dear to... lets call them "online partisans of a particular nation", but the large ships of zheng he were not in the same ballpark, not even the same game as 15th century ships european ships. Being particularly large does not make it particularly seaworthy or particularly useful for war; the opposite in fact. His voyage was a coast hugging, peaceful diplomatic mission; they were made large to look diplomatically impressive... This is like looking at the Tsar Cannon and thinking that was the actual military trend of the time in field artillery (it was the opposite; miniaturization and mobility).
 
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It's not out of the question that a China that continued to emphasize naval + exploration (and maybe had some contact with Ottomans/Portuguese as a result) could manage legit war-capable ships, however. They certainly had the means produce such ships, and could probably source foreign experts from nations aligned with them if they really wanted.

But the game doesn't model any of this in the first place, so it's unreasonable to slap players/nations with the restrictions as if this is a choice they actually made. Same goes for tech penalties absent institution management, actually.
 
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I'd quite like to see tech groups give ship unit types as well as land unit types TBH. It's always felt a bit flavourless to me that I have access to the same ships as an Indian as a European - even just from a naming perspective. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing them abstracted down from gun numbers, hull size etc to simple pips. Making naval battles more like land battles, mechanically, might incentivize more engagement with the naval aspect of the game and in turn finally make it important.
 
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The game does represent the European edge over the rest of the world, and it only increases with time.
There are several factors at play, such as an abnormality high "development" at start, better unit pips later on, trade steering into Europe and institutions still being Eurocentric despite the fact technological parity is easily achievable.

Essentially the game is giving Europe an advantage in everything EXCEPT technology.

There is no justification for why western units are inherently worse early on and better later on, this seems like a band-aid to a disfuncional technology system.

Either the AI prioritises technology way to much, thus overcoming the institutional disadvantage and achieving parity where it shouldn't (at the expense of higher mp costs), or institutions are simply not punishing enough for the rotw to catch up.
My hunch is the former.
 
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I think injecting historical realism into conquering the interior of africa for this period would not be pleasing to you; it would involve quartering the supply outside of the coast and uncapping attrition, and then giving the provinces permanent unrest malus.
I would absolutely like these ideas. You could go even further with this. For example locally raised troops could be less affected by the attrition than outside troops, but maybe have less morale pips or less base morale (not sure if possible). This would also provide a huge advantage to any African nation and maybe make a decent alternative to westernization.

Though I am hesitant about the increased unrest. You already get a base for being foreign culture and I think today we overestimate the unrest caused by foreign rulers somewhat.
 
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Jomini

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It's not out of the question that a China that continued to emphasize naval + exploration (and maybe had some contact with Ottomans/Portuguese as a result) could manage legit war-capable ships, however. They certainly had the means produce such ships, and could probably source foreign experts from nations aligned with them if they really wanted.

But the game doesn't model any of this in the first place, so it's unreasonable to slap players/nations with the restrictions as if this is a choice they actually made. Same goes for tech penalties absent institution management, actually.
Almost certainly not. Even in the 16th century captured Ottoman naval guns were viewed as so inferior that the Venetians melted them down and then had to add refinements to re-alloy and recast them as something useful. Chinese metallurgy would have needed massive upstream improvements to come close to getting the quality needed for naval guns that would not make the ship too top heavy. And a lot of those innovations required things that China was drastically short on (e.g. large scale forestry operations, charcoal).

Likewise, prows would be a major issue. For most of game period the Europeans were pretty unique in having large scale, well husbanded forests that made fast oceanic shipbuilding possible. Prows and other key bends in the ship were normally made by finding trees with the correct bends growing in low density forest. Scrub forest tends to be too twisty and the grain too uneven to be strong enough. Old growth forest has too little sunlight reaching the lower layers so the overwhelming majority of the trees are ramrod straight and not prone to bending back. To get European style shipbuilding China needs not just shipwrights, but carpenters, foresters and decades of forestry management. The treasure ships were an extremely good design given where and how China was sourcing their timber, but they are never going to be fast enough to compete with European warships.

Because reality is, the Chinese were not dumb. Lots of countries tried to replicate European successes at sea and with artillery. But they needed not the thin skim of technological progress at the top, but the deep layers underneath to have a prayer of doing it. There is a reason why Ottoman attempts to build Western European style ships in the Indian Ocean failed. There is a reason that Koxinga's ships suffered massive losses to just the Hector, which they got lucky when it exploded to either a freak shot (cannon ball hitting a high angle and falling down into the gunport) or a misfire on the Hector setting off the powder store directly. There is a reason why all the Mahgreb states stopped casting their own cannons and just started buying British.

And I think ultimately, the bigger deal was that many of the competing loci of population peaked long before Western Europe and depleted their transition resources long before the Europeans did. China had massive population density for forever and they basically eliminated all of the large-scale forests within China centuries before game start. Likewise, Europe was weirdly attached to animal power and most of the rest of the world had had it severely culled to feed the population at some population bottleneck (e.g. Tamerlane) which resulted in a lot of weird technological implications (e.g. tallow availability allowed the Europeans to do things with leather that could not be done cost effectively elsewhere).

Should the rest of the world be able to develop all this downstream stuff? I guess. But the conditions that lead to it just are not present in the rest of the world and engineering them would be impossible (e.g. mass reliance on animal power is hard in Africa where the horses die whenever they get bit outside). A lot of the technology developed not because it was the best solution overall, but because it made the best use of the currently extant resources and nowhere else has Europe's resource mix (and it often took about a century for the colonial ventures to replicate that resource base).

Now should the rest of the world be able to conquest Europe? Absolutely. It would have been quite possible for the North Africans to consolidate, cut an unholy alliance with France or Aragon and retake a base in southern Iberia and push north (particularly if France later goes Reformed and partitions the places with Sunni allies). And if you are holding Seville, then you should become heir to Seville's technology.

End of the day, the game has the military backwards. The hardest thing to replicate was the navy, not the infantry. The rest of the world should struggle the most with warships, other ships, artillery, galleys, infantry, and cavalry in that order. And it would make the most sense to tie unit recruitment to provinces (or at least cultures) and not to states.
 
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Almost certainly not. Even in the 16th century captured Ottoman naval guns were viewed as so inferior that the Venetians melted them down and then had to add refinements to re-alloy and recast them as something useful. Chinese metallurgy would have needed massive upstream improvements to come close to getting the quality needed for naval guns that would not make the ship too top heavy. And a lot of those innovations required things that China was drastically short on (e.g. large scale forestry operations, charcoal).
China in history, yes. But not necessarily a completely differently run China with completely different leadership/oversight/etc. Hell, China doesn't even have to be Ming OR Qing at that point.

Similarly, there's no guarantee in principle that the Europeans develop the same tech as quickly or maintain the infrastructure.

Should the rest of the world be able to develop all this downstream stuff? I guess. But the conditions that lead to it just are not present in the rest of the world and engineering them would be impossible (e.g. mass reliance on animal power is hard in Africa where the horses die whenever they get bit outside). A lot of the technology developed not because it was the best solution overall, but because it made the best use of the currently extant resources and nowhere else has Europe's resource mix (and it often took about a century for the colonial ventures to replicate that resource base).
What matters here is agency vs the game model. The game doesn't even look at this stuff in nuanced detail. It doesn't even let you know if there is more than one kid in line for the throne. It doesn't let you try to develop the background industry and institutional knowledge to build competitive shipping, or to try to figure out what makes ships the best for a given timeframe. That's not a thing.

What it does, do, however, is let everything west of the Urals say "Kazan" or "Nogai" before 1600, if the player so chooses. In this environment, good shipping practices would still be constrained to the Europeans? Maybe, if they exist at all in that world? That's a big if, however, given what razing or even more normal massed conquest implies.

And it would make the most sense to tie unit recruitment to provinces (or at least cultures) and not to states.

This was once a thing in EU 4 (including local maintenance modifiers mattering). Too granular for the devs' taste, so they took it out. But given EU 4's constraints and the importance of agency in games, I don't like abstracting "can't dos" over long timeframes arbitrarily. And building high end ships should be a LOT easier than some of the things the game allows, in spite of all the difficulties you highlight. Forget an African nation doing it, China itself can own Sevilla by 1600 if it wants in EU 4.

As for navy in particular, I think a better starting point would be to first make the naval advantage matter in SP in the first place, if it's something we care about. That way we're not throwing in nuanced detail for the sake of it while most players still go "lol cogs" and full annex GB without winning a single naval battle.
 
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OK so China had similar designs. That is a fact.
Also the development of the European printing press sparked a unique spread of knowledge and was a contributing factor to the further technological development of Europe.

So for some reason despite having the same technique in one area it didn't result in nearly the same fundamental shift as in the other.
So yeah you could make a case, but it's fundamentally flawed because there is a precedent for it and it did not happen. There was a fundamental difference in society which made European development unique.

Another example basic ass Steam engines were also known in Ancient Rome and Greece but didn't lead to the industrial revolution due to economic and social factors.
China's designs were categorically different.

For instance, China had wood block printing for forever, but wood block is not a significant improvement over scribing. It still involves using highly skilled labor that can produce limited runs of a particular work. What made Gutenberg unique was the using a screw press and most importantly finding the antimony-lead-tin alloy that was easy to cast, but sharp enough to hold legible shape after repeated striking. This enabled moveable type, where a printer could retool to print any work with semi-skilled labor.

Steam engines, likewise, required the European metallurgical techniques, mass steel production, and fine precision to be efficient enough to actually do much useful work (e.g. pumping out the mines). It further required a dense enough energy source (e.g. coal) to make most of the early designs particularly viable. Ancient steam engines were largely novelty items because the ability to produce the alloys to hold up to repeated exposure to pressure, high temperature steam, and repetitive motion were really actually rather novel.

And on it goes.

And this is the gaping ahistorical flaw in EUIV. All of the great innovators stood on the shoulders of giants. Early European cannons were produced largely by bell foundries which had spent centuries figuring out how to cast large metal objects of uniform density that can withstand significant impact. Some Australian tribe is not going to go from a society devoid of metalworking to casting cannon in a few decades or even hundreds of years. For just about any new innovation, there are literally dozens of needed skillsets and manufactured inputs and most places in the globe lacked more than a few. Because the natives were not dumb. They tried to replicate some of the European advances, but it uniformly proved to be more advantageous to just trade for firearms and even cannons than to try to repackage centuries of technology change into a short burst of innovation.

Reality looks a lot more like Civilization's tech tree with, in the early modern period, a rapid run of technology enabling more rapid technological progress. Some of this was indeed cultural (e.g. the Reformation provided one of the biggest increases in literacy in both Protestant lands and those where they were hounded out), but Europe really was favorably situated in terms of resources, demographics, and ideology in a way that the rest of the world could not replicate.
 
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China in history, yes. But not necessarily a completely differently run China with completely different leadership/oversight/etc. Hell, China doesn't even have to be Ming OR Qing at that point.

Similarly, there's no guarantee in principle that the Europeans develop the same tech as quickly or maintain the infrastructure.


What matters here is agency vs the game model. The game doesn't even look at this stuff in nuanced detail. It doesn't even let you know if there is more than one kid in line for the throne. It doesn't let you try to develop the background industry and institutional knowledge to build competitive shipping, or to try to figure out what makes ships the best for a given timeframe. That's not a thing.

What it does, do, however, is let everything west of the Urals say "Kazan" or "Nogai" before 1600, if the player so chooses. In this environment, good shipping practices would still be constrained to the Europeans? Maybe, if they exist at all in that world? That's a big if, however, given what razing or even more normal massed conquest implies.



This was once a thing in EU 4 (including local maintenance modifiers mattering). Too granular for the devs' taste, so they took it out. But given EU 4's constraints and the importance of agency in games, I don't like abstracting "can't dos" over long timeframes arbitrarily. And building high end ships should be a LOT easier than some of the things the game allows, in spite of all the difficulties you highlight. Forget an African nation doing it, China itself can own Sevilla by 1600 if it wants in EU 4.

As for navy in particular, I think a better starting point would be to first make the naval advantage matter in SP in the first place, if it's something we care about. That way we're not throwing in nuanced detail for the sake of it while most players still go "lol cogs" and full annex GB without winning a single naval battle.
I am agnostic on the gameplay issues. I think it would be more fun to have localized recruitment requirements for units (so places with strong cavalry traditions have better horsemen because they recruit people who have been riding since age 3 instead of Tibet fielding shock cavalry on par with Native American horse archers).

But an ahistorical China would still be unable to pivot to European shipbuilding techniques in China for several hundred years in game. It would need to regrow massive forests, then selectively prune them down, and then figure out what the heck to do with a different shipbuilding tradition that relied on the wood needed.

And frankly it makes no sense to me that we conquest some place and the locales forget everything they have ever learned. Yes, some skilled craftsmen would flee and some cross border trade would dry up. But there should, at least, be rather massive increases in tech if some backwards state manages to capture, control, and fully integrate some Europe territory into its economy. E.g. dropping a shipyard in Bombay should have some serious consequences if it falls to the locals and Britain should be unwilling to do so just to optimize repair times for the fleet.
 
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Usually Europe pulls ahead too fast but then for some reason Asian countries can catch up in the end game. That’s ahistorical as the Europeans pulled ahead at the 1600-1700 period IRL. I’d propose making Renaissance no longer Europe locked, but enlightenment and global trade should be Europe locked instead.
 
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