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Thracian

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hello there,
long time hoi player, thousands of hours spent in hoi2, 3 and 4


after playin about 400 hours of hoi4, i took a break and have not played it for a long time. before the break i could steamroll france as germany
now i started playing it again, but for my terror i cant beat france as germany. i sometimes cannot even step on french soil, they stop me in belgium.
i tried many things in many playthroughs:
  • attack with 120 inf divisions + 5 armor
  • attack with 72 inf +10 armor
  • annex netherlands first, then attack belgium and luxembourg
  • attack benelux countries at once
  • attack with 72 inf + 10 marine + 5 armor
  • sometimes build infrastructure sometimes not
whatever i try, i cannot break the frontline. with 5-7 divs in each province they easily stop my attacks
and allies always have 4000 planes over benelux regions against my 1500! 4000!:mad:


my typical inf division is: infantries + 2 artilleries for 20 width. supports: engineer, signal, artillery, sometimes anti air, hospital


what am i doing wrong?
why could i easily defeat france before, and cannot now?
what was changed?
 

Voigt

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Depending on how long you were gone, normally France after LaR overall got nerfed so they should be easier to defeat that prior.
But the UK learned to build much more planes, so I think this is the problem, since they got 4k Fighter over your 1,5k. If they use CAS aswell they can stop offensives quite easily.

How are you tank divisions designed? Normally even in bad air, good tanks with Force Attack should break trough against the AI in decent terrain.
 
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Thracian

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Depending on how long you were gone, normally France after LaR overall got nerfed so they should be easier to defeat that prior.
But the UK learned to build much more planes, so I think this is the problem, since they got 4k Fighter over your 1,5k. If they use CAS aswell they can stop offensives quite easily.

How are you tank divisions designed? Normally even in bad air, good tanks with Force Attack should break trough against the AI in decent terrain.
from my last playthrough:
1599748645922.png
 

Voigt

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Engineers are very much for attack aswell, because of the Terrain Boni. I would never outfit Tanks without them, especially if you tech them up so they are more potent against bunkers and later over rivers.
But yeah making the tank divisions bigger should help. The most meta way would be 3 Tanks with 40 Width, something like 10 Mot, 10 Tanks to keep it somewhat cheap and push with those. But 20 Width is decent aswell, either 6 Tanks, 4 Mot or 5/5. Just try to have enough tank divisions to fill up the combatwidth of a battle completly with tanks, so 80 or 120 width, meaning 4 or 6 20 width tank divisions.
 
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Thracian

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tank divisions are minority. what about 120 other inf divisions? they should be enough for germany but are not
 

Kazakk

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Get 40w tank divisions and attack with them. Encircle, exploit holes, and france is ezpz. 8LSP + 8 mot is a cheap and very powerful tank composition, also makes it easy to rush for tigers for barbarossa.
Also get 20w motorized.
 

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what about 120 other inf divisions? they should be enough for germany but are not

Interesting point. Do you think its because he doesn't have air superiority?
 

Eisscrat

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40w is not the magic button to win.
I play wirh 20w and surrender france in a week. Soviets in two month. There is only a small benefit from 2x20w or 1x40w.

You clearly need more stuff. You dont even need medium tanks or mech inf for france.

Also dont mix light and medium tanks and mech. Keep light tanks and motorised separat for the speed. This is their main streght especial in france.

I push through the belgian coast and drive deep into france with up to 15km/h and get the victory points. To fast fir the AI to react.
 
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Thracian

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i cant breakthrough the front in the first place
i planned to replace LArm with MArm and Mot with Mec gradually, that's why they are mixed
but since i cannot do a breakthrough, speed is irrelevant for me

i suspect devs changed something fundamental in one of the dlcs and i am still playing with my vanilla game habits. but i cant figure out what they are
 

TJIANG

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1. Air wins war. Never too much fighters.
2. Your armored division is of sub-par quality. This is because:
-you don't want/need to have support ART in your armored division. The attack it provides does not help much and it lowers your hardness.
-your division is not maxed out at 20w. Also consider using fewer but 40w armored divisions.
-you may want more medium tanks.
3. 120 INF is too much. You really don't need that many INF to beat France. Just enough to hold the line and destroy enemies in pockets. Instead your production line should be geared to produce more tanks, trucks and fighters.
4. Attack the enemy with your infantry only when:
-your are in huge advantage
-your enemy is encircled
-your enemy is in bad position
-you want to pin the enemy down so that your armored division can breakthrough their defensive line elsewhere to form an encirclement.
otherwise, don't attack with INF and DO NOT SIMPLY DRAW A BATTLE PLAN AND JUST LET IT RUN AUTOMATICALLY SO MUCH SO THAT YOUR INF DIVISIONS BLEED DRY(unless your are fighting Ethiopians and wanna have more land experience then go ahead). Micromanage and attack manually.
5. Are you sure you are using the most capable commanders for the battle? i.e. fortbusters agains fortified provinces.
6. Are your doctrines up-to-date? I like to accumulate as much land experience as possible (lend-lease, atttache to japan, fight as long as possible in SCW, etc.) so that I can spend it to expedite land doctrine research.
 

squid_hills

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Invest in support AA if the Allies have more planes than you. I mean, ideally you want to capture air superiority and have more fighters and CAS and such, but if the AI is turning all of Britain's industry over to fighter production you might not be able to win that arms race. Support AA can help mitigate the penalty for fighting without air superiority. It also can replace support AT, since it gives almost as much piercing as AT.

Also, your tank template is less than ideal. Your divisions should be 20w at minimum, 40w if you can afford it, and mixing light and medium tanks doesn't do anything other than bork your production lines up. Switch to full medium tank production as soon as you have a medium tank design to build (so late 1937 or so). Light tanks are mostly useless in Europe by 1939 because everybody and their dog has support AT. If you're doing an early war (start justifying on France in 1936 for example) light tanks can be good for rapidly grabbing ground and still have some durability, but after 1939 they are going to get blown up at an astounding rate. Don't waste time mixing motorized and mechanized, either. Motorized is good for speed, Mechanized has decent (for infantry) armor, but isn't very fast until Mech 3. They are good when paired with medium tanks, because their armor means the overall division's armor rating won't be pulled down like it would be with motorized.

Build tactical bombers and have them strategic bomb airfields. You'll lose a lot of tac bombers initially, as you don't have air superiority, but every time they damage an airfield, they will inflict a penalty on the planes flying from that field. Those planes will have a reduced effect on enemy air superiority, which will help you win the war in the air. Enough bomb hits on an airfield can temporarily shut it down, grounding the planes (unless the AI moves them to a new field, but I don't know if it does... my allies always seem content to stack too many planes on a blowed-up airfield).
 

Shaka of Carthage

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Thracian

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1. Air wins war. Never too much fighters.
2. Your armored division is of sub-par quality. This is because:
-you don't want/need to have support ART in your armored division. The attack it provides does not help much and it lowers your hardness.
-your division is not maxed out at 20w. Also consider using fewer but 40w armored divisions.
-you may want more medium tanks.
3. 120 INF is too much. You really don't need that many INF to beat France. Just enough to hold the line and destroy enemies in pockets. Instead your production line should be geared to produce more tanks, trucks and fighters.
4. Attack the enemy with your infantry only when:
-your are in huge advantage
-your enemy is encircled
-your enemy is in bad position
-you want to pin the enemy down so that your armored division can breakthrough their defensive line elsewhere to form an encirclement.
otherwise, don't attack with INF and DO NOT SIMPLY DRAW A BATTLE PLAN AND JUST LET IT RUN AUTOMATICALLY SO MUCH SO THAT YOUR INF DIVISIONS BLEED DRY(unless your are fighting Ethiopians and wanna have more land experience then go ahead). Micromanage and attack manually.
5. Are you sure you are using the most capable commanders for the battle? i.e. fortbusters agains fortified provinces.
6. Are your doctrines up-to-date? I like to accumulate as much land experience as possible (lend-lease, atttache to japan, fight as long as possible in SCW, etc.) so that I can spend it to expedite land doctrine research.
  1. i cant keep up with allied fighter production. they had 4000 in 1940
  2. my arm divisions may be bad. maybe i should invested in MArm earlier and more
  3. i produced them because they are... cheap. maybe a mistake
  4. i draw a plan and have INF divions attack automatically. i only manually control my speacial attack units such as armor divisons, marines, mountaineers
  5. yes, ofc
  6. i completed mobile warfare tech tree except for the last two in 1940.
 

Thracian

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Invest in support AA if the Allies have more planes than you. I mean, ideally you want to capture air superiority and have more fighters and CAS and such, but if the AI is turning all of Britain's industry over to fighter production you might not be able to win that arms race. Support AA can help mitigate the penalty for fighting without air superiority. It also can replace support AT, since it gives almost as much piercing as AT.

Also, your tank template is less than ideal. Your divisions should be 20w at minimum, 40w if you can afford it, and mixing light and medium tanks doesn't do anything other than bork your production lines up. Switch to full medium tank production as soon as you have a medium tank design to build (so late 1937 or so). Light tanks are mostly useless in Europe by 1939 because everybody and their dog has support AT. If you're doing an early war (start justifying on France in 1936 for example) light tanks can be good for rapidly grabbing ground and still have some durability, but after 1939 they are going to get blown up at an astounding rate. Don't waste time mixing motorized and mechanized, either. Motorized is good for speed, Mechanized has decent (for infantry) armor, but isn't very fast until Mech 3. They are good when paired with medium tanks, because their armor means the overall division's armor rating won't be pulled down like it would be with motorized.

Build tactical bombers and have them strategic bomb airfields. You'll lose a lot of tac bombers initially, as you don't have air superiority, but every time they damage an airfield, they will inflict a penalty on the planes flying from that field. Those planes will have a reduced effect on enemy air superiority, which will help you win the war in the air. Enough bomb hits on an airfield can temporarily shut it down, grounding the planes (unless the AI moves them to a new field, but I don't know if it does... my allies always seem content to stack too many planes on a blowed-up airfield).
all my inv divisions has support anti-air against allied air superiority and against soviet tanks for later
i was gradually replacing MArm with LArm and Mec with Mot. i didnt have enough to replace at once
i used tacs for ground attack and naval strike. attacking airfields may be a good idea
 

TJIANG

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  1. i cant keep up with allied fighter production. they had 4000 in 1940
  2. my arm divisions may be bad. maybe i should invested in MArm earlier and more
  3. i produced them because they are... cheap. maybe a mistake
  4. i draw a plan and have INF divions attack automatically. i only manually control my speacial attack units such as armor divisons, marines, mountaineers
  5. yes, ofc
  6. i completed mobile warfare tech tree except for the last two in 1940.
Good, my only disagreement with you is in 4. I use battle plans just to let my INF divisions hold the line automatically and build up planning bonus. I would only initiate attack plan of my INF corps when the enemy is at the brink of collapse, or for the purposes I mentioned in prior post. For Battle of France you should feel comfortable micromanage your division, especially your tank corps all the way. This style of attacking suits better with mobile warfare doctrine. If you want to make full use of the battle plan system then you want to use superior firepower/grand battleplan. Also speaking of tank corps, it is essential to have all your armored/mobile units forming a single corps (like what germany did historically), instead of distributing them among INF corps.
 
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squid_hills

Second Lieutenant
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Just out of curiosity, how are your INF and/or CAV divisions built? While attacking with INF isn't ideal, a well-built INF division can wreck face if you need it to (it's how minor nations get stuff done, after all). I'm thinking 95% of your problem is the air superiority situation, but let's cover all of our bases, just to be safe.
 

blahmaster6k

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Here's my industrial buildup, the key to decisively winning the war early.

Starting with the Ideal game start military factory breakdown, in order of number of factories (in my opinion):
Germany starts with 28 military factories.
15 on fighters
5 on infantry equipment
2 on motorized
2 on CAS
1 on NAV
1 on light tanks
1 on artillery
1 on support equipment

15 factories on Bf-109 from day 1, use 175 air xp from Spanish Civil War to give your Bf-109 +5 engine, switch to the +5 engine variant as soon as you get enough air xp to make it. 2 factories on CAS, increase to 5 when you add extra mils from German War Economy. This will give you air superiority by the time war breaks out. Your air force will slaughter the allies with both numerical and qualitative superiority. Eventually over the course of the game you'll go up to 50-100 factories on fighters. Air is king.

Only 1 factory on light tanks to make up losses for your starting panzer divisions and for the introduction of armored recon companies in your tank divisions. This will be all you need the entire game.

5 factories on guns. This may seem counterintuitive, as Germany needs to build up a large army, but let me explain. The reason is that Infantry in my German playstyle is a purely defensive force outside of a few special forces divisions. You don't need them to have good stats from up to date infantry equipment, just 20 or 40 width pure infantry with whatever tier equipment is enough to hold the line against anything that isn't a 40-width tank division. You get a large stockpile of guns from Anschluss. You get an even bigger stockpile of guns from Fate of Czechoslovakia. You get further stockpiles of guns from the capitulations of Poland, The Netherlands, Belgium, and Luxembourg. You don't need many factories on guns because you get so many for free. I will have a massive infantry equipment deficit before I defeat Poland, but once Poland is gone I will have filled all my needs, and by the fall of the Benelux I will have a massive stockpile in the green.

Putting support AT and AA in your infantry can be good in multiplayer, but isn't necessary for SP. Likewise, the 1 factory on artillery is enough for the early game until you start making divisions of 40-width mountaineers. I don't even put support artillery in my defensive 20-width infantry at the start, just engineer companies. 1 factory on each of artillery and support equipment is plenty at the start. I add up to 5 factories on support equipment when I start building military factories to produce enough for my expanding armored divisions, but you don't need it at the start of the game.

2 factories on motorized. Motorized is really cheap, and not used except in tank divisions. I don't use any support companies in my infantry that require motorized equipment, so the demand for it is very low at game start. I may put up to five factories on it later once my tank forces are large enough to require increased production, but it's not needed at game start.

2 factories on CAS, and 1 on NAV. This is enough for game start, and will produce a sufficient amount of CAS to get you through the Spanish Civil War with a small naval bomber force built up for the early war. You don't need large numbers of naval bombers until after the fall of France, so they're not an early game priority.

I start building military factories in mid 1938 after building a large number of civilian factories and synthetic refineries. First I round out CAS to 5 factories, then support equipment to 5 factories, then everything goes on Fighters until I have 1941 medium tanks researched, which should be around the start of 1939 or sooner if you prefer to rush them even faster. Once 1941 mediums are researched I go back down to 15 factories on fighters and put every excess factory on Medium 2s to pump out as many tank divisions as possible before the war. Once I have 25-30 factories on medium tanks I start putting them on fighters again, and up the number of factories on motorized to 10. I typically go for 25 factories on tanks, then up the number of factories on fighters to 25, then 50 tanks 25 fighters, then 50 tanks 50 fighters. After I reach this point, I up the number of factories on CAS to 15 and put more factories on Artillery when I start producing some 40-width mountaineer divisions for difficult terrain, or marines for Sea Lion.

Army composition:

I deploy 120 divisions of 20-width pure infantry with engineer support companies before I declare war on Poland. They will lack guns at first, but as you annex and capitulate each country in Europe their equipment will fill up completely. After Fate of Czech you should have almost enough, and your forces on the French Border should be fully equipped, while forces on the Polish border are lacking.

40-width panzer division should be your tank template, either 13 medium tanks 7 motorized with superior firepower right-left, or 15 medium tank 5 motorized with mobile warfare left-right. If you're concerned about enemy air superiority, swap out one medium tank in either template with two self-propelled anti-air, with +5 to air attack in the variant designer. Support companies should be Engineers, Armored Recon, Maintenance, Logistics, and either Signals or Artillery. These divisions will stomp on anything the vanilla AI will throw at you and be more or less invincible as long as they have supply and fuel.

I typically expand my starting tank template (the light tank one) out to 20-width, with 5 light tanks and 5 motorized, just for the sake of making use of the tanks I start with and have produced prior to the war. I don't build any new divisions of them, but since the three you start with tend to get to veteran EXP in the Spanish civil war, it would be a waste to disband them when they would still be useful until around 1940. You can send them to man lower priority fronts like Africa later on and they'll still hold their own. Light Tanks have lower terrain penalties and less supply use than medium tanks so they do better in African jungles than mediums would. I will usually have around three divisions of 40-width medium tanks by the time I declare on Poland, one more coming online during the battle of France, and 10-20 for Barbarossa. I like to take out Norway after France if I'm not planning to go for Sea Lion, and so I send one of my 24-division infantry armies to Norway, while my light tanks take care of the African front and my medium tanks prepare for the invasion of the Balkans and Barbarossa. By Barbarossa time, I will have 120 divisions of 40-width pure infantry with engineers and logistics, 10-20 divisions of 40-width medium tanks, 3 light tanks in Africa, as many 14-4 mountaineer divisions as my special forces cap will allow, and as many spammed out 20-width pure infantry with no support companies divisions as I can to hold the Atlantic Wall.

Hope this helps. It's one German strategy among many, other players may have other things they like more, but I can say from experience that it works every time.
 
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