I can`t believe paradox have gone Steam. (there is a non-steam version on GG)

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Burning

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You can play it without steam running
You still need steam to install the games and get updates. Or do you play games without updates? Most of todays games are unplayable at release, others "just" suffer severe quality issues. There are positive exceptions from that rule, but they have declined in numbers over the years.

Same as GG, Origin etc
Nope. Difference with Gamersgate and other more liberal distribution systems is that you don't need software running, and can modify your game at your liking. Regarding Origin you are absolutely right: but what's the point in trading cholera for the bubonic plaque? :)

Still subject to ... competition (origin)
Hopefully, but it's likely to get more restrictive over time, as both want to provide better "protection" for their partners' property.

Most points relate to non paradox games on steam
And how does that make steam any better?
 

comsubpac

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sorry burning, but you have no idea how paradox games on steam (and steam in general) actually work. maybe you should come back when you have tried it yourself and you actually know what you are talking about. be careful though your browser might spy on you.
 

s1234567890m

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You still need steam to install the games and get updates. Or do you play games without updates? Most of todays games are unplayable at release, others "just" suffer severe quality issues. There are positive exceptions from that rule, but they have declined in numbers over the years.

i said play not patch.

Nope. Difference with Gamersgate and other more liberal distribution systems is that you don't need software running :). Regarding Origin you are absolutely right: but what's the point in trading cholera for the bubonic plaque?

Still need to login into there system or rely on an exploit to copy out install files

And how does that make steam any better?

Becaue they are optional functionality that devs can turn off
 

Burning

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sorry burning, but you have no idea how paradox games on steam (and steam in general) actually work. maybe you should come back when you have tried it yourself and you actually know what you are talking about. be careful though your browser might spy on you.

I've been using steam in the past, I know it works, (and actually also understand the technology behind it). Though, maybe it has completely changed over the course of 4 years. I doubt that a little bit. ;)

Still need to login into there system or rely on an exploit to copy out install files
While this would technically be possible, it's highly unlikely. However, if anyone ever broke into such a platform... BOY what a botnet that would be. The area I'm working in would see an incredible boom. :D And i guess in result quite a few content distribution platforms would disappear overnight.

Becaue they are optional functionality that devs can turn off

That STILL does not make the business model of Steam (or Origin) any better.
 

s1234567890m

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While this would technically be possible, it's highly unlikely. However, if anyone ever broke into such a platform... BOY what a botnet that would be. The area I'm working in would see an incredible boom. And i guess in result quite a few content distribution platforms would lose a lot of customers overnight.

...its a well documented with gamersgate once you enter your password in the installer you can copy out the unencrypted install files while it is installing. Its one of the reasons people 'prefer' GG
 

Burning

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...its a well documented with gamersgate once you enter your password in the installer you can copy out the unencrypted install files while it is installing. Its one of the reasons people 'prefer' GG

That's also why i never said something against gamersgate :). The issue you describe exists with any web service, including everything that pushes content to you. I'm using gamersgate actually, as i posted before: digital content distribution by itself is the logical consequence of Internet access for everyone.

Digital distribution can be implemented in an restrictive way, or can be implemented as what is can be: download&install. Nothing wrong with the second approach. Steam and Origin are not simple content-push services, they chose to implement a restrictive software-islands that binds games to them.

If i can choose to buy games there and the forget about steam, forever, I would be fine with that. As reality is, you can ONLY get updates and future installs using steam. Tell me what happens if steam was offline for a week, and your game requires a connection to steam? Nothing but an error message happens. What happens if you wanted to install the game? Nothing happens. Sure, there is the backup feature, but how do you get updates again? Right. Through steam. But wait: steam is offline.
 
Last edited:

James The 1st

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Very simplified and in short words:
  • introduces/contains/popularizes/uses/deploys DRM
  • very restrictive for customer, compared to other platforms
  • can't update/install/play without steam client and steam libraries.
  • steam-only titles force you to either not buy them or use steam, lack of alternative
  • binds games, thus players to them
  • Spyware, sale of customer data
  • abusive terms of service (similar to Origin, i guess not a problem in the US, but in most of europe; there have even been lawsuits)
  • abuse of position in the market
  • same issues the music industry has/had.
Can't argue with not liking DRM, although, Paradox doesn't use the Steamworks DRM.
Not sure about the restrictive part. What kind of restrictions?
If you have internet, this is not a problem.
Steam is not Spyware. It only watches what you do with Steam.
I don't see how Steam abuses it's position. They regularly have the cheapest games.

Really, most complaints about Steam are nitpicking. There is always some strange backlash from some about new stuff.
 

James The 1st

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If i can choose to buy games there and the forget about steam, forever, I would be fine with that. As reality is, you can ONLY get updates and future installs using steam. Tell me what happens if steam was offline for a week, and your game requires a connection to steam? Nothing but an error message happens. What happens if you wanted to install the game? Nothing happens. Sure, there is the backup feature, but how do you get updates again? Right. Through steam. But wait: steam is offline.
Granted, this is valid for most other other games.
With Paradox games on Steam, you can copy the game out of the Steam folder and it will be exactly the same as the GamersGate version.
 

Darkrenown

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Jup, because you that's what they are living off. Sure, a few €/$/c per sale is also in, but you don't upkeep an infrastructure like they operate AND make profit that. They would be missing a few (hundred) millions there ;-)

Any source for that? Forbes thinks Steam is fairly profitable and no mention is made of selling user data. I'd have thought that would be of interest in such and article if that were the case.
 

Centurion1973

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Jup, because you that's what they are living off. Sure, a few €/$/c per sale is also in, but you don't upkeep an infrastructure like they operate AND make profit that. They would be missing a few (hundred) millions there ;-)

You vastly overestimate cost of Steams infrastructure and significantly underestimate how much money Valve make from Steam.

Also Valve has only around 300 employees so their salary expenses are much smaller than companies like EA (7800 employees) or Blizzard (5000 employees).
 

xGhost4000x

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1. You still need steam to install the games and get updates. Or do you play games without updates? Most of todays games are unplayable at release, others "just" suffer severe quality issues. There are positive exceptions from that rule, but they have declined in numbers over the years.


2. Nope. Difference with Gamersgate and other more liberal distribution systems is that you don't need software running, and can modify your game at your liking. Regarding Origin you are absolutely right: but what's the point in trading cholera for the bubonic plaque? :)


3. Hopefully, but it's likely to get more restrictive over time, as both want to provide better "protection" for their partners' property.


4. And how does that make steam any better?

1. Incorrect, you can get patches from the forums and install them on steam versions.

2. Once again, incorrect. You do not require steam or any other software running for any paradox games that I know of.

3. Steam has competition from:

Amazon
Beamdog
DLGamer
Direct2Drive
EBGames
Game
GameAgent
GameEssence
GamersGate
Games for Windows Marketplace
GamesLoad
GamesPlanet
GameStop
GameStreamer
GameTap
GameTree
Green Man Gaming
GetGames
GoG
Impulse
Mac Game Store
SpawnPoint
Strategy First
yuplay.com


and I'm sure more I don't know about. So they aren't going to run out of competitors anytime soon.
 

Chromos

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1. Incorrect, you can get patches from the forums and install them on steam versions.

2. Once again, incorrect. You do not require steam or any other software running for any paradox games that I know of.

3. Steam has competition from:
..
Point 2 only because some here complaint over being forced to use STEAM, same to point 1.. ;)

Burning made some very good points about such different ways of handling digital distributions.
The main point is for me that you have to carefully watch them, what they're doing. Or they would take more form you as you would maybe like.

Same for nowadays browser or freemailers. Anyone read the terms of use form the mostly US-run freemailers?
Scanning your emails for better adverts and making you responsible for telling all your emails contacts that their emails to you wil be scanned too..

So who read the terms of use of STEAM or the EULA's..
STEAM has more rights as Gamersgate "against you". And is in the end not more tranparent/obvious then Gamersgate, just because it uses its own client and stores the game different as the normal game installations etc.. So it might be easier to use for the average user, but at a "cost" as it could act on your hardware if you don't have the knowledge to prevent that.(Configure the client software, copy the game into a differnt location out of the STEAM folder wich is not allowed iirc..) While GAmersgate just delivers the game to you digitaly and then leaves your system alone. No afterwards action possible..

Some remember the story where e-books where deleted afterwards(!) they were paid on digital readers like Kindle's, as the company decided to not sell the books they had already sold to their customers and deleted them on the devices.. Just because of some censoring going on.. The customers get of course a voucher for other books..
All to protect the customers of course.. And with full rights to the EULA/laws in some countries already.

Now think about the same story with physical stuff. Like books the goverment does not like etc.. I think everybody can see the dangers that comes also with the new technologies.
Next to the new cool features/possibilities they have..

Who is reading such terms of use and won't be against it? But for digital stuff, the "normal/average" user will just click forward without reading, trusting into the "system", right into its "own digital sale"..
So it is very good that at least some, point out to the dangers of such services.. In Europe such "over reaction" or "fear" is much bigger as in the US maybe, but it is good that it is mentioned and even better that companies then still offer another distribution channel. So other customers benefit from the "STEAM dislikers" even if they don't know why, much the same as they don't know about the restricting and not favourable EULA's they sign all day long already..

I wouldn't like to have people coming into my house and taking games away, because they think I shouldn't have access to them anymore.
And I wouldn't also like to have the same possibilities on my PC, wich is a PERSONAL Computer for me..
Because of that, as "a good democrat", I "raise my voice", even digitally, to share my opinion on such possibilities.. :)

Cheers,
Chromos

(who is using carefully STEAM too..)
 

unmerged(81596)

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3. Steam has competition from:
If there's proper competition the competitors don't sell the dominant player's bundled marketplace- it's like Ford selling a car and having a big "Buy Toyota" festooned all over it, using Toyota for servicing, subscribing you to the Toyota newsletter and offering you Toyota deals. Cars have proper competition and hence there is zero chance of that happening, PC gaming doesn't so that is exactly what happens. The list of windows competitors just based on a *nix would be even longer but anyone suggesting there's effective competition on desktop would be laughed down as an MS stooge, though at least in that case they are proper (if ineffective) competitors.

Not a particularly good list either, even a brief check shows GameStop listed thrice (==EBGames and Impulse) and D2D still existing.

The 'competition' is loss leading so far as steam is concerned- you trade some current tangible benefits (ie some lost sales to 'competitors') now for install base and penetration, knowing that the average GG/ Impulse whatever user by default will become a steam user as well. Then you can point at install numbers and leverage the whole thing further with publishers; and know that an increasing percentage of people will buy from steam because it's there while playing, being 'convenient', keeping games on one location and all the other stuff. That's the whole point of why Valve does what it does, to get install base, it's not because they're just such nice guys over in Seattle.
 

xGhost4000x

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Did you see amazons spring sale? They had some really good sales, I got LA Noire for a couple of dollars.

And once again this thread is COMPLETELY useless, there is a non steam version, if you think steam doesn't have competition and you hate it for whatever reason then buy the Gamersgate version, I don't see what is so difficult to understand.

As for the list, I'm sorry I grabbed it off a google search and only did a rudimentary scan through the sites.

This thread needs to be closed.
 

flame7926

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Did you see amazons spring sale? They had some really good sales, I got LA Noire for a couple of dollars.

And once again this thread is COMPLETELY useless, there is a non steam version, if you think steam doesn't have competition and you hate it for whatever reason then buy the Gamersgate version, I don't see what is so difficult to understand.

As for the list, I'm sorry I grabbed it off a google search and only did a rudimentary scan through the sites.

This thread needs to be closed.

For other games published by paradox there is only steam version, like naval warfare arctic circle.
 

Weijun

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For other games published by paradox there is only steam version, like naval warfare arctic circle.
...and Magicka, and Sword of the Stars II, and Gettysburg: Armored Warfare, and Defenders of Ardania...
 

xGhost4000x

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For other games published by paradox there is only steam version, like naval warfare arctic circle.

This thread is in the Crusader Kings 2 board. If you want to discuss those games you should go to the respective board.
 

flame7926

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This thread is in the Crusader Kings 2 board. If you want to discuss those games you should go to the respective board.

This thread has been in General discussion for weeks if not months.