I Can Haz Citybuilder?- Suggestions for a Sim Sequel

[Alfryd]

Here is an extremely-poor-quality .gif of a very rough mockup of housing progression (a la impressions'/tilted mill's citybuilder series. I was bored and it was kind of fun to draw, so there you are. ) Caesar III was one of those games that artificially aged me by about 3 years with nothing to show for it, and I notice that a couple of other fans (and at least one previewer) have complained that majesty's settlements look like overgrown villages ratherly than properly integrated towns, so maybe this kind of urban evolution could improve the ambience in that respect.

Anyways, just a pie-in-the-sky suggestion for Majesty 3. -Hope you like it.

 

[burning_phoneix]

couple of other fans (and at least one previewer) have complained that majesty's settlements look like overgrown villages ratherly than properly integrated towns, so maybe this kind of urban evolution could improve the ambience in that respect.

Yeah that was me.

And you call that poor quality!

Though I do agree, if we some elements of city builders (like my favorite Pharaoh) for Majesty 3 it would be amazing but it seems that Majesty 2 is an update to increase the Majesty fandom. Which isn't really a bad thing.

 

[Nerdfish]

Really nice A.
I'd imagine upper level housing would serve some other functions beside providing residence. Fortification and guild halls come to mind.

 

[Draxynnic]

Interesting idea. Inns should remain separate buildings since they have a specific purpose, but housing having different levels could be an interesting twist (with, presumably, higher-level housing providing more taxes or some other benefit).

One thing that does concern me with the idea is block size - a level 1 house that originally appeared close to your Palace may not have room to upgrade itself if later stages require greater room, while if higher-level housing just appears, this could create a strange situation where you have hovels near your Palace and rich merchants' villas on the outskirts.

One solution could be for the houses to have a set block size regardless of the level of the house. A block with level 1 housing, for instance, could be a cluster of huts or a single farmhouse with surrounding fields. As the settlement grows more prosperous, those houses closest to the Palace upgrade into more advanced housing while new Level 1 blocks appear in the outskirts.

If you want to get really complicated about it, you might develop a more involved model of what makes a 'rich' and 'poor' district within the settlement. For instance, proximity to a Marketplace may make houses more likely to upgrade, while the presence of a Rogue's Guild may indicate that an area is poorer and, thus, make housing in that area more likely to remain at a lower level. (Such factors shouldn't affect the total rate of housing development, just influence where it occurs - so the presence of a Rogue's Guild in a settlement, for instance, won't prevent an upgrade from happening, it just means that the upgrade is more likely to occur across town rather than right next door.)

 

[Alfryd]

I do have various ideas for how evolution would occur in a cogent fashion, but it's a little involved, so I'll leave it for now.

 

[unmerged(81179)]

I've always wanted an "auto evolution" for a lot of the buildings in Majesty- I think the only evolution that is directly controlled should be the Palace, Warriors' Guild, beatification projects, and other things that you would tie directly to the King's immediate control- while temples, the market area, and housing would develop on their own (but still be influenced by your ruling actions, such as building zones) and also gain an cultural influence over your kingdom determining the overall "feel" of it- if you catch my drift.

Anyways, its a nice design and it would be interesting to work out the dynamics of the gameplay in which you try to balance out the "poor" workers and the more wealthy citizens and how that would effect worker efficiency, commerce, etc.

 

[Draxynnic]

Well, the Sovereign does still have some control over things - in the original version the Sovereign authorises and funds all the original building projects.

That said, one thing that would be interesting is if some proportion of untaxed gold going into a building gets put aside towards renovations, and that when that portion grows high enough, the building will automatically go into upgrade mode. The Sovereign would, however, still be able to directly influence it by making donations towards an end.

 

[Alfryd]

Yeah that was me.

And you call that poor quality!

Though I do agree, if we some elements of city builders (like my favorite Pharaoh) for Majesty 3 it would be amazing but it seems that Majesty 2 is an update to increase the Majesty fandom. Which isn't really a bad thing.

The .gif is only in 16 colours. Thanks for the feedback, anyways. I agree there's nothing specifically wrong with just refining existing aspects of majesty, but I think future development may have to split along separate directions, for reasons I've covered before.

Really nice A.
I'd imagine upper level housing would serve some other functions beside providing residence. Fortification and guild halls come to mind.

Interesting idea. Inns should remain separate buildings since they have a specific purpose, but housing having different levels could be an interesting twist (with, presumably, higher-level housing providing more taxes or some other benefit).

The big question here is how much detail you want to invest in the economic side of things compared with the adventuring/combat side of things.

At one extreme, the only purpose of this system is to allow for settlements that 'look natural', and also encourage control of territory (as opposed to turtling) by making your overall economic strength dependant on how many peasant holdings you can establish away from the base. This goes back to my quarters/fiefdoms ideas from months back. With a system like this, the economy can be almost entirely atuonomous and needn't be too detailed. That frees the player's attention to deal with babysitting heroes, coordinating military operations or setting commissions, and could probably be adapted to multiplayer.

At the other extreme, you'd have a full-blown heavyweight simulator combining the economic complexity and management of the Citybuilder series with the behavioural minutiae of the Sims. This would be almost impossible to adapt to direct, competitive multiplayer. Individual citizens would emerge from buildings, get the resources needed for their households from markets or individual vendors, look for entertainment, sanitation, safety, etc., build up savings, and eventually upgrade their homes when conditions are right. In this case, you might have several extra intermediate housing levels.

One solution could be for the houses to have a set block size regardless of the level of the house. A block with level 1 housing, for instance, could be a cluster of huts or a single farmhouse with surrounding fields.

My thoughts have been going somewhere along these lines. In fact, you'd rely on those fields (and possibly wharves or mine entrances) as the foundation of your economy- instead of having gold just auto-generate, revenue at your markets/inns/etc, would be directly proportionate to resources harvested from peasant holdings of this type.

As a general rule, instead of placing individual buildings, you'd place quarters (say, 16x16 tile areas, shrunk in cases of overlap) in which many buildings would develop. Things like rogues' or rangers' guilds wouldn't be manually placed at all, but develop spontaneously within particular areas if conditions are right. Same goes for brothels/gambling dens, city dumps, and maybe even certain temples.

An alternative/complementary system, as you suggest, is that initial peasant holdings would develop spontaneously in areas that 'feel safe'. (Anything you place directly would automatically overwrite/demolish low-level peasant holdings.)

I've always wanted an "auto evolution" for a lot of the buildings in Majesty- I think the only evolution that is directly controlled should be the Palace, Warriors' Guild, beatification projects, and other things that you would tie directly to the King's immediate control- while temples, the market area, and housing would develop on their own (but still be influenced by your ruling actions, such as building zones) and also gain an cultural influence over your kingdom determining the overall "feel" of it- if you catch my drift.

My thoughts exactly. The direct management in this system might consist of hiring on workers into your direct employ- smiths, masons, almoners, taxmen, as well as becoming a 'patron' for various heroes that can't be directly recruited. This gives you a measure of influence over an economy that's otherwise 'on autopilot'.

 

[Draxynnic]

I'd probably be inclined to go with the 'largely autonomous' side of things - at least to begin with. If things split enough to have a specific single-player version, that could potentially move towards a more in-depth economy.

I'm leery about having things as important as guilds relying entirely on conditions being right, however. Some spontaneousness can be good there for flavour (especially with regards to rogue's guilds, which on the whole are a little silly to be publically erected by the Sovereign...), but I'd prefer to be able to place required buildings instead of relying ENTIRELY on spontaneous construction - for instance, while local hunters and trappers may form their own guild if the situation is right, it should also be possible for the Sovereign to establish their own Royal Scouts as well.

Under the current system of major temples needing to be built at special sites, of course, having those appear spontaneously is probably a little off. The Cleric's Guild would probably serve as a local shrine, though.

 

[Alfryd]

I'd probably be inclined to go with the 'largely autonomous' side of things - at least to begin with. If things split enough to have a specific single-player version, that could potentially move towards a more in-depth economy.

While some of these ideas could well be adapted toward a conventional multiplayer-deathmatch playing style, "Sim Sequel" means I'm more or less assuming a game intended to appeal to simulationist players- In which case, spontaneousness isn't a question of flavour so much as believability, and things like 'places of power' or 'crossroads' can be abandoned.

A largely autonomous economy is fine either way, but economic depth isn't a problem as long as the complexity is self-maintaining. I think the key to making economic depth more palatable is to combine economic with military functions to a fair degree: e.g, imagine three separate production centres.
1. the blacksmith- produces weapons, armour, and wares. Can include masons/jewellers.
2. the mill- stores and preserves food and herbs, acts as an apothecary to brew potions.
3. the loom- produces fine cloth, tapestries, and robes for stealth/camouflage/charisma.

Each of these buildings can then service the needs of both heroes and citizenry- heroes can buy items for consumption or enchantment, while citizens buy simpler goods to (eventually) upgrade their housing. (Much of the complexity could also be concealed within specialised 'tech trees' at each production facility, and different hero classes might derive benefit from some venues more than others.) Inns and fairgrounds, similarly, can service citizens' need for entertainment, temples likewise for veneration/blessings, while fountains, statues and gardens could improve aesthetics/hygiene. Most of the infrastructure you need for the complexity of a full-blown citybuilder is actually already present in majesty- it just has to be leveraged properly.

 

[Draxynnic]

Aye. In fact, this is pretty much what the situation is in the original Majesty - aside from houses, I can't think of any building whose only function is economy...

...and houses aren't exactly economic powerhouses anyway. They're possibly more important as ablative armour than for what little tax revenue you get out of them, especially since a tax collector visiting houses are being diverted from the big moneymakers.

Still, while spontaneous appearances would be more believable than everything relying on the Sovereign, I think going too far that way is also stretching believability - the Sovereign should be able to commission the construction of specific buildings if they choose to do so. (Heck, I wouldn't mind a system that allows you to preplace sewer entrances in advance so as to reduce the risk of one popping up next to a Marketplace... because even without the threat of Ratmen, who wants an open sewer grate next-door to a shopping centre?)

 

[Alfryd]

...and houses aren't exactly economic powerhouses anyway. They're possibly more important as ablative armour than for what little tax revenue you get out of them, especially since a tax collector visiting houses are being diverted from the big moneymakers.

Well, presumably these changes could fix that.

Still, while spontaneous appearances would be more believable than everything relying on the Sovereign, I think going too far that way is also stretching believability - the Sovereign should be able to commission the construction of specific buildings if they choose to do so. (Heck, I wouldn't mind a system that allows you to preplace sewer entrances in advance so as to reduce the risk of one popping up next to a Marketplace... because even without the threat of Ratmen, who wants an open sewer grate next-door to a shopping centre?)

Oh, I'm fully in agreement with you there. The question is which buildings/guilds should logically be under direct control, which should constitute zones/quarters unto themselves, and which you would have no control over at all.

Really nice A.
I'd imagine upper level housing would serve some other functions beside providing residence. Fortification and guild halls come to mind.

Actually, Cook- now that you mention it, it might be interesting to have certain temples/guilds influence either the appearance (or maximum development) of housing at higher levels. It might be too much content to be worth pursuing, but it always struck me as odd that a lunord/krypta settlement would have these bright, cheery buildings all over the place in a settlement that worships night and death.

 

[Alfryd]

I just did some mockups of sample industries/services and resources, though I'm not entirely sure what you'd do with them:

.

(In reading order) forge, brewery, loom, physic, apothecary, jeweller. (To the right, you have ale, ore, wares, stone, food, cloth and cures.) This is actually a little more detail than I think the player should have to handle manually, but maybe these things might just 'pop up' as manifestations of different research options? The 'industries' are also too small to be visible at that scale- maybe you could put them inside buildings, or use them as UI icons to access different rooms at the palace...

 

[Alfryd]

And here are components for a lego-brick palace kit, a la Stronghold! ...yeah, I kinda got carried away.

(Some assembly required. Keep masonry in excess of 40 tons away from children.)

The basic idea is that you could start off with the palace looking something like what you see below:

...and progress to what you see above. And... that's more or less my full opinion on the subject. I'll see if I can come up with a proper composite palace/town mockup at some point, but this oughta convey the general idea(?)

 

[unmerged(136157)]

That is just beautiful (in my opinion) Alfryd, combining elements of Stronghold into Majesty would be dream for me. On that note, I got a pretty good feeling Majesty 2 might be have the ability to be modded. So if your interested later on perhaps we'll have to conjure up some people and have a crack at making a mod with at least some of these ideas.

 

[Alfryd]

That would be a very interesting project- thanks. Marchris has already expressed some interest in working on a mod himself, but the scripting system the game comes with might be the constraining factor here...

Anyways- if you put all the above together, what you'd ideally end up with is something like this-

It's how you might imagine a small but prosperous settlement- I thought the best overall approach would be to have industries just appear in various buildings as a result of tech research, so there's a forge/brewery in the palace courtyard, and a loom/apothecary in the marketplace. But anyways, that's a minor detail.
I've shown the palace as being constructed with the ability to place palace components on top of eachother in a 3-dimensional fashion. Each palace component requires physical links to prerequisite buildings, (which explains the walkway, ) and has various semi-random decorative outcrops, so that put together you can get some very unique-looking structural combinations.

Still, while spontaneous appearances would be more believable than everything relying on the Sovereign, I think going too far that way is also stretching believability - the Sovereign should be able to commission the construction of specific buildings if they choose to do so. (Heck, I wouldn't mind a system that allows you to preplace sewer entrances in advance so as to reduce the risk of one popping up next to a Marketplace... because even without the threat of Ratmen, who wants an open sewer grate next-door to a shopping centre?)

Going into specifics, I'd guess that I'd go with...
Built directly: The wizard's tower, knight's keep, and courtesan's suite (which I'll get to in a minute.) Dwarven structures. All palace structures (aside from randomised decorative elements.)
Have their own zones/quarters: 'Temples' to Lunord, Dauros, Agrela and Krypta. Elvish settlement. Markets. Boroughs or holdings. The Bailey. Fairgrounds.
Just appear under right conditions: Everything else.

 

[Alfryd]

Hero professions:

Knight- heavy melee, light social, light divine (usually agrela.)
Wizard- heavy arcane, heavy alchemy.
Courtesan/Courtier- heavy social, light sleight, light alchemy.

These heroes can be hired on directly by building them appropriate quarters at the palace- e.g, a wizard's tower, knight's keep or courtesan's suite. The role of the knight and wizard should be familiar enough, but the courtesan/courtier is sort of intended as a 'social tank'- ideal as a diplomat, spy or messenger- achieving by charm or bluster what can't be done by force or stealth. (Courtesans/Wizards are sometimes elves/dwarves respectively.)

Mason- crafting, melee, light divine (dauros).
Bard- social, light melee, light arcane (esp. illusion/enchantment).
Hunter- sleight, survival, light melee.

These heroes are particularly vital economically, since they provide important services- stonework, entertainment, and meat/herbs- to your general citizenry. You can't hire them directly, but you can strongly encourage their settlement with the right 'zoning'- marketplaces, inns, the great hall, royal forest, the solar, apothecary, etc... (Hunters, Bards and Masons are often rangers, elves and dwarves, respectively.)

Outlaw- heavy sleight, light alchemy, light melee.
Hermit- heavy divine (usually agrela or krolm,) light crafting, light survival.
Cultist- divine (usually fervus, krypta or helia,) social, light arcane.

These are heroes which you can't hire on at the palace at all. They can be persuaded to work with you (in parties, or for the right price,) but tend to follow their own compass, and only settle if conditions are right. (They're not nomadic, however, so they're not usually too hard to find.) Cultists and Hermits are both clergy, but only cultists lead a congregation, and cultists don't need a temple- they can work in secret.

Since a lot of these heroes have direct economic roles, things like sovereign spells also require that the hero actually return to their home buildings in order to perform the appropriate service. e.g, if you want some scrying done, that wizard has to physically go to his tower and cast the appropriate spell. Cultists must lead their congregation in person, Hermits must resurrect the dead by immediate contact, and Outlaws have to go house-to-house during extortion. (Naturally, this sort of thing takes time, so long-term single-player games would be required for this system to work.)

You'll also note that I'm making no class-based restrictions on race or religious alignment. Any hero (or citizen for that matter,) could generally belong to any race and worship any God. The descriptions I'm giving here represent social roles/expectations and likely development over time. But there is nothing, in principle, to stop a Cultist from learning to craft armour or a wizard from learning sleight of hand- it's just unusual.

To make this work, of course, you need (A) pretty robust AI, so that heroes can make informed decisions about what to learn, and (B) an MMO-style avatar system, where just a few basic models are customised through equipment, cloth textures, etc. (This also lets you expand the number of citizens/hero professions considerably with minimal effort on the part of the content team. ...In theory.)

Anyways- usual caveat and addendum- I'm just throwing out ideas here. It's entirely likely about half of this would be unworkable, but you might take the overall picture as a starting point. Does anyone else think this is going too far in the 'sim' direction? Any specific criticisms?

 

[unmerged(18701)]

Those drawings are very nice, Alfryd. I'd also like Majesty 3 to have more of a town/city-feel, like the original Majesty 2 was supposed to. Let's hope Majesty 2 does well enough to warrant another sequel.

Also, What is the name of the castle in the photograph you posted? I'd love to visit that someday.

 

[Alfryd]

That's Neuschwanstein Castle (actually built in the 19th century as part of a medieval revivalism fad. Go figure. )

 

[unmerged(18701)]

I know that castle, actually, although I didn't recognize it. I've actually wanted to go there since I played Gabriel Knight 2.