I can forecast the next balance patch will kill the game

[Dianno5741]

This is upsurd. People somehow argue the assets of third armored give the allies super strength. It's called a panther and divisions that can't field that can field superior infantry. The STUG vs 76 argument is like the Sherman vs panther argument. Unless you flank in some epic manner it's not going to happen.

Nobody is saying the balance between 1000m tanks is off. Shermans, PIVs, STUGs. All have a place and it is really cool. Unfortunately 1000m tank META doesn't exist. However Germans do have late B and C advantage. Those "vetted M10s" you cry about have 13AP. Cool story bro, any Axis player worth his weight will just keep his panther, jagdIV, Tiger, or TigerII at 1000m + where your chance to pen is meh at best meanwhile you have 8 armor? Lol. 76s, same gun, 11 armor. Lol ok.

Fireflies/Achilles are good, except nearly all 1200m German TDs mentioned above are taken vetted and fireflies are lucky with vet1. Meaning your chance to hit at range is dog shit while his vet2 panther will KO you consistently. So it takes superior micro to "smoke and flank bruh" to kill it.

And no, your KT micro sucks if you lost it to an AT gun. It can not be killed at 1000m plus range unless you made a rookie mistake, typically a few.

 

[IS-2]

Wow, the edge is sure getting thick.

"WGRD players would never be happy with WG4, they would complain it isn't WGRD!"

Well gee, sounds like how WGALB players complain that RD isn't ALB and their precious air spammy glory.

"SDN has more customization in deck building than WGRD!"

WGRD has been around for years. The current balance has been solid for a long time now. How long has the meta in SDN been stable? How long has the current balance been around? Are you honestly going to tell me that the exact same thing isn't going to happen in SDN that has happened in WGRD?

I had a few games with WGRD earlier. Bloody Ridge, moto EuroCorps, armored Commonwealth, mech scandi, general Israel, vs armored Soviet, mot Baltic, airborne Soviet and general Yugo. Whole lot of variety in that line up. Hell I can run general EC, or armored EC, or moto EC on Bloody in team games. There's a fair number of ways to work a given coalition or what not. "But you'll use a lot of the same..." and that isn't going to eventually happen in Steel Division as well? Please.

Give SDN enough time and I'm going to be laughing when this vaulted "better customization" in SDN turns into exactly how it is in WGRD, with a whole lot of cookie cutter builds. I've already seen and watched enough 1v1 matches where airborne decks dominated in SDN, and yet people were going "muh better customization."

Seriously, just stop. Trying to make such bold statements is just laughable.

"I like Steel Division more, and I've only spent 10 minutes on each Wargame title..."

mmmkay, so you prefer WW2 settings more? WW2 is a massive turnoff for me, but I like some of the new mechanics that I'm hoping the player base picks back up sometime soon. I'm still considering getting the game because of some of new features.



Entente doesn't have BTRs? Not sure if serious or just sarcasm, but if serious then someone definitely has no clue wtf they are talking about.

also, I don't know about you, but the "static" and "boring" gameplay comes from playing destruction. Destruction is cancerously boring and slow and dull and always puts me to sleep. Conquest on the other hand is fast and brutal and infinitely more exciting. Stop playing destruction and play more conquest.

Also, you are welcome for Wargame giving EUGEN a lot of experience on balancing. Of course, this cookie cutter stuff you are complaining about WGRD having, well I've already covered that. SDN is going to have it as well, just wait and see.



Muh SDN variety! Never mind how 1v1 boiled down to insanely similar airborne decks everywhere for a hot minute there! Never mind that and how something similar is going to happen again! We'll eventually get to the Promised Land with enough balance patches!

You know, it's funny, I've watched these forums enough that people have already talked about as long as there are a handful of decks that are viable, the game will be fine. Balance patches become rarer and rarer, and the meta settles, and those who can really pick apart the game figure it out, you'll see the same stagnation in Steel Division just like in the Wargame series. People will have figured out which units are decent, which are trash and rarely if ever worth taking, and so on.

If you don't think so you are just lying to yourself.

Team games will encourage a bit more variety in decks in SDN, just like it does in WGRD.

they get btr 60pb none of the good ones. and only useful for padobranci..

that list of decks u put there is very impressive but the effective difference between all of them is much less pronounced than SD. SD has true asymmetric balance, RD doesnt. it is symmetrical balance with some random flavour shit chucked in to differentiate various factions. compared to SD where each deck plays much different from one another thanks to new phase system and variable income. it is just better designed.

i was never arguing "deck customization" is better. i have over 800 hours on red dragon and 300 on ALB i played RD in ranked and really really enjoy both SD and RD. when i was criticising the meta calling it boring I was not complaining about camping, I know RD is a very fluid game i am not a noob in it. i only played conquest btw. i was referring to the period before the DLC packs and big balance changes (the other 80% of the games life) where the meta was trash.

SD as a whole has more difference between the decks because of the restrictions on the decks, and this allows eugen to make all of them viable because they can tune those specific decks without having some other variation of it become OP. because those variations dont exist. this is better for the game as a whole because it actually creates interesting gameplay, the decrease in options is water under the bridge. if u complain about not having 100000 options for ur deck u do not understand SD, your complaint is meaningless. it is better this way believe me.

and the 1v1 airborne meta was nerfed soon after that tournament BTW. i definitely would not call airborne decks meta even in 1v1 these days. SD will never get to the point RD was because of the way it has been designed. the only somewhat solid meta i would call right now is taking 1 armour deck in 2v2. the razzmann "why do i suddenly suck at this game WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" gang is bitter they dont have their wg4. the best part is instead of trying to be objective about either game they just bitch that it sucks because they suck and want to go back to their RD comfy couch.

 

[Kampfkekskrieger]

Unfortunately 1000m tank META doesn't exist.

The game is a sandbox that you can transform. You can create what you need. Also a situation that favours you.
The allied tanks dont have the AP of the germans, but they 90% of the time have enough to fire at those. Once a tank is suppressed, it does not matter, how much AP it has, and it does not matter that much, whether you need 5 or 10 shells to kill it, but more difficult is to suppress those and allied crowd bonus gives them a suppression advantage because more units fire, so once a german unit is suppressed, its unlikely it will survive that situation and slip through your grab.
AP values and Ranges are not important anymore, once you suppressed the people with Arty or rocket planes or ground units, that can attack without being an easy target themselves.

SD has true asymmetric balance, RD doesnt.

Both games have beautiful asymmetric balance! You have such a big amount of differences, not the missing of differences. You just loose the overview and cartegorize them as if they WERE the same in order to handle it. But at that point you loose control, and access to a part of the game, that exists but you cannot make use of the freedom and richness. Many people cant.
If you can, the game is both more fun and also playwise an advantage for you.
The game is huge. Not explored to the end. I think the story goes still on for a while. Computer games have a LONG life time. Especially if they need to bridge long starving years.

 

[Dianno5741]

You're delusional. You're theory crafting that you're using combined arms and your opponent doesn't have AA or counter battery to prevent you from stunning anything. Without planes or arty what you gonna suppress that Vet 2 panther with? While you're busy suppressing him he is busy picking you off.

This coming from someone who lost a KT by Rambo-ing it forward to an AT gun without recon or screen. Then pointing out, see you can lose them!

 

[Claremont Waltz]

And no, your KT micro sucks if you lost it to an AT gun. It can not be killed at 1000m plus range unless you made a rookie mistake, typically a few.

Front armor only covers 60 degrees, so you can get a guaranteed frontal hit on side armor at max range by positioning a pair of AT guns at 30 degrees off the center line on either side.

This is of course explained nowhere in game or out so I doubt many people are aware. I've killed plenty of KT with what looks to most people like a frontal shot with the American 76mm at max range which has 0% CTP the 20+ fav of the KT by knowing and taking advantage of this mechanic.

 

[Razzmann]

the razzmann "why do i suddenly suck at this game WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" gang is bitter they dont have their wg4.

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

 

[local-festival]

allies faction win the all games after quarter games in ESL.I'm sure EUGEN will nerf some allies powerful divisions' advantage and buff axis divisions,still ignoring allies weakness divisions.Finally 1V1 may get balanced,2V2、3v3and4V4 must be broken the balance.AS for 10V10 allies player,who care?
Steel Division has lost 10V10 players,the next balance patch will lose all players except 1v1 player,this game will be dead

What a load of nonsense.

 

[Fade2Gray]

they get btr 60pb none of the good ones. and only useful for padobranci..

Nice shifting goalpost.

that list of decks u put there is very impressive but the effective difference between all of them is much less pronounced than SD. SD has true asymmetric balance, RD doesnt. it is symmetrical balance with some random flavour shit chucked in to differentiate various factions. compared to SD where each deck plays much different from one another thanks to new phase system and variable income. it is just better designed.

Uh, Baltic moto plays VASTLY different from Soviet armored. The differences between them is huge. Also, there is definitely not symmetrical balance between all the coalitions, at all. If you theme the divisions the differences increase even more so.

i was never arguing "deck customization" is better.

mmmkay.

SD as a whole has more difference between the decks because of the restrictions on the decks, and this allows eugen to make all of them viable because they can tune those specific decks without having some other variation of it become OP. because those variations dont exist. this is better for the game as a whole because it actually creates interesting gameplay, the decrease in options is water under the bridge. if u complain about not having 100000 options for ur deck u do not understand SD, your complaint is meaningless. it is better this way believe me.

I never complained about not having a million options, but you know what? WGRD has this interesting featured called "themed only decks" for lobbies. Hell, when I play team games on DDay or Bloody the majority of the decks tend to be themed, though sometimes there are plenty of general decks as well. Team games almost demand at least half of the team specialize their decks, map dependent.

and the 1v1 airborne meta was nerfed soon after that tournament BTW. i definitely would not call airborne decks meta even in 1v1 these days.

I'm fully aware of that, I do follow the forums and regularly talk to people who own SDN and watch, when I can, them play. I simply pointed out how stagnation is certainly possible and has happened before, and will most likely happen again. Balancing the game so that more than a handful of divisions are super competitive and viable is a very tall order. Considering how young the game is, I find that trying to claim that "it will never get that bad" to be a very bold statement. I dare say that just like WGRD you will need a bunch of patches to help iron out SDN.

SD will never get to the point RD was because of the way it has been designed. the only somewhat solid meta i would call right now is taking 1 armour deck in 2v2. the razzmann "why do i suddenly suck at this game WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA" gang is bitter they dont have their wg4. the best part is instead of trying to be objective about either game they just bitch that it sucks because they suck and want to go back to their RD comfy couch.

Do you take a break from throwing out fallacies? Seems to be a major theme from certain people on here, they don't have anything meaningful to say in defense so just directly attack the person instead of the argument.

I mean, you complain about ATGM planes in WGRD. Why? Do you not know how to smoke or something? You claim to be knowledgable about Wargame and yet throw out garbage like "Yugo doesn't have BTRs" and then try to backtrack when you get called out for it. Speaking of smoke, playing Bloc versus say CMW or NORAD in an open field is vastly different than playing Soviet against the same foes.

I find your claims about WGRD to be flawed and deeply lacking, and your claims of SDN having more variety in the long run to be naive and extremely fanboyish, especially considering how young the game is. There's a lot that I like about what SDN has done, but ultimately it did create some new problems and hurt certain aspects of game play that were big in WGRD. Sneaking around for example is pretty much impossible in SDN, but that's something for another thread and something that I have an idea on that might fix that issue.

 

[Drang]

I can't teach you anything if you dont ask. Have a good day!

No, you can't teach me anything because you have fuck all to teach, at least from that replay.

Show me some replays of you killing KTs. Against human players. Competent human players.

Front armor only covers 60 degrees, so you can get a guaranteed frontal hit on side armor at max range by positioning a pair of AT guns at 30 degrees off the center line on either side.

This is of course explained nowhere in game or out so I doubt many people are aware. I've killed plenty of KT with what looks to most people like a frontal shot with the American 76mm at max range which has 0% CTP the 20+ fav of the KT by knowing and taking advantage of this mechanic.

So to kill a KT, I need to position two AT guns, ideally with 1-2 vet to ensure they, you know, actually land that essential first shot hit, without being spotted and artyed, at thirty degrees or more apart from the KT, with sufficiently overlapping fields of fire that they will engage simeltaneously, all the while commanding my other forces.

My opponent needs to click "W", ensure there's a nearby recce, and ideally a screening unit to absorb any such AT ambushes (a half track will excell in this), and have a fighter and flak screen up.


Eminently balanced.

 

[IS-2]

Nice shifting goalpost.


Uh, Baltic moto plays VASTLY different from Soviet armored. The differences between them is huge. Also, there is definitely not symmetrical balance between all the coalitions, at all. If you theme the divisions the differences increase even more so.


mmmkay.


I never complained about not having a million options, but you know what? WGRD has this interesting featured called "themed only decks" for lobbies. Hell, when I play team games on DDay or Bloody the majority of the decks tend to be themed, though sometimes there are plenty of general decks as well. Team games almost demand at least half of the team specialize their decks, map dependent.


I'm fully aware of that, I do follow the forums and regularly talk to people who own SDN and watch, when I can, them play. I simply pointed out how stagnation is certainly possible and has happened before, and will most likely happen again. Balancing the game so that more than a handful of divisions are super competitive and viable is a very tall order. Considering how young the game is, I find that trying to claim that "it will never get that bad" to be a very bold statement. I dare say that just like WGRD you will need a bunch of patches to help iron out SDN.


Do you take a break from throwing out fallacies? Seems to be a major theme from certain people on here, they don't have anything meaningful to say in defense so just directly attack the person instead of the argument.

I mean, you complain about ATGM planes in WGRD. Why? Do you not know how to smoke or something? You claim to be knowledgable about Wargame and yet throw out garbage like "Yugo doesn't have BTRs" and then try to backtrack when you get called out for it. Speaking of smoke, playing Bloc versus say CMW or NORAD in an open field is vastly different than playing Soviet against the same foes.

I find your claims about WGRD to be flawed and deeply lacking, and your claims of SDN having more variety in the long run to be naive and extremely fanboyish, especially considering how young the game is. There's a lot that I like about what SDN has done, but ultimately it did create some new problems and hurt certain aspects of game play that were big in WGRD. Sneaking around for example is pretty much impossible in SDN, but that's something for another thread and something that I have an idea on that might fix that issue.

disagree

 

[Fade2Gray]

disagree

k

 

[Kampfkekskrieger]

The time for gifts is over, my friend. First, you show how much it is worth for you to get helped. The things that you dont pay, you will loose now. If you 'want' something, you first give the price, and THEN I show you Kingtigers. Its a matter of value, not of skill.

Edit: ( have basicly no problem to show you a LOT of things. I just can't afford extensive things without a compensation of my time to do so. For me I dont need to do this. You can see also at my guide that I am very capable to do something valuable. And the replay is valuable, too. But only for those who pick gold nuggets, instead of overlooking them.
If I have enough time, I can also bring things to an end. Its just a matter of whether people are interested.)

 

[Drang]

The time for gifts is over, my friend. First, you show how much it is worth for you to get helped. The things that you dont pay, you will loose now. If you 'want' something, you first give the price, and THEN I show you Kingtigers. Its a matter of value, not of skill.

Edit: ( have basicly no problem to show you a LOT of things. I just can't afford extensive things without a compensation of my time to do so. For me I dont need to do this. You can see also at my guide that I am very capable to do something valuable. And the replay is valuable, too. But only for those who pick gold nuggets, instead of overlooking them.
If I have enough time, I can also bring things to an end. Its just a matter of whether people are interested.)

So, to summarize (wooly, semiliterate ramblings and primitive allegory aside): you have fuck all to teach, as the KT cannot be reliably killed without the axis player making serious mistakes in it's deployment, as you have handily demonstrated.

Thank you

 

[Ashleighs]

This convo takes me back to early CoH days

King Tiger OP! I think the allies said the same thing during the war.

 

[Kampfkekskrieger]

If you go on insulting people, I can stop teaching you also in the next couple of games. If the price is that your rating without value goes into the direction, it goes for ALL unpaid bills, I will squish every last penny out of you!

So for those, who are capable to play the game on the usual level, they might have found the solution... (including me).

 

[Drang]

@Kampfkekskrieger: You do realize that, even if you do beat me in SD, it doesn't prove me wrong? Deductive reasoning isn't determined by who can beat whom in a game of Steel Division.

 

[Kampfkekskrieger]

you cannot challenge me. Whatever you try. I dont want to spoil you the game. NEVER!
We can play and I will NEVER hurt you whatever you intend. Because its a game and not real!

What I offered the people and what you rate about it, have by far not a single touch somewhere.
I DONT go into argumentation, I DONT defend myself. Its your rating. I have nothing to do with your disagree!

I just let you go on punching me, until you are ready, because if you hit me, you dont hit the game.

But the rain does not care if you shout at it. It will rain on.

Some 'catching the falling people' is a part to heal the world.

For those, who are interested in some consciousness, will like my example, not perfect, not useless, but it will help them on their way. And they have to do their own judge whether they like what they see. But why are you asking ME to teach you another (a better) opinion about my games?

 

[Fade2Gray]

Did MILINT make himself a new name? Because this really smacks of pure MILINT....

 

[Kampfkekskrieger]

I need to translate this word. I think its militantness or morale, and its a good attitude to raise.

Lets go on with the main topic, the forecast, I have fun to talk a little bit. So I think this game is growing, slow at first, but its a franchise, that can stand on its own feets, also (with/despite) having the roots from the other games.

For me, it has MUCH more content than the previous games, and the 18 Divisions even contest Red Dragons content and you see the people struggle with some divisions or units, it is possible that they need years to play them properly. But that does not have to mean, that those secondary divisions have less value. Some tactics only start to work, if you can bring together a certain skill level, because when you are capable to play with almost no casualties on infantry, you can start to exploit keygolden different strengths, that were not available yet.

You can hold the flank with only 1 tank because you can micro it reliably? Then now you have (lets say) 250 free points! OOps, is that a balance drop? No, its result of your skill! You earned that!

I think despite all complains, that 100.000 sells is a solid stand point that you can build upon, and if you once have such a 'big foot', even if with scars, the next success will be much cheaper, because you have technology to use again, and if missing content is the main problem, adding this is a workful but much easier task to gain money with the honest man.

But its also important to give, that you dont make an experiment into endless investments, without give the people an interstep of a game, to validate if you go into the right direction. Because if you dont, you loose a very expensive bet.

So better now, give them an acomplished innovation, taking the money they give, taking the complains (same as valuable), and the other answers you get from that, but now you have some very sure grout to build the next expansion on.

I think this is some very intelligent tactic.

 

[Drang]

@Kampfkekskrieger : At the moment, I'm asking you to demonstrate a reliable means of killing a KT that doesn't require significant negligence by the KT-using player.

Which you can't.