I beg ye Paradox, please allow us to remove holdings...

[Hotl3looded]

Yes, I believe it makes more sense for a revokation (with economic/military reasons feigned event) instead of this:

"1- Converting a castle into either a city or a temple is a harsh punishment for the baron. Castles are inheritable unlike cities and temples which means that the baron will lose his lands if converted."

Especially in the case of castle->bishopric. What did you mean? The liege forces a baron to become a bishop, ergo forces the Pope (if Catholic) to appoint his baron as a bishop(what happens to his wife and children?) as a form of punishment?

I also had in mind some kind of revokation instead of simply converting the castle. That's what I meant by "punishment".

The pope creates bishoprics. The problem ingame is... the game didn't divide between ecclastical hierarchy and secular hierarchy... Historically we had abbeys with county sized territories... ingame this is impossible, because it would became an bishopric...

So it makes little sense to convert castles/cities into a bishopric?

 

[Zolotaya]

I've noticed something somewhat related to this in my most recent game (769 start), and I'm very surprised that I've never seen anyone bring it up before: "wrong" holding make up in provinces.

In several provinces in Wales there was too many castles - i.e. two castles and a city. Or (even worse), two castles and a temple. It's really annoying.

A tribal ruler can't build new holdings, but as I understand it this can happen a tribal ruler with a feudal liege? I suppose what happens is that there is a tribal holding, and a temple. Then the feudal liege(?) builds a castle holding and finally the tribal holding is upgraded to castle. Hmm I suppose you (or rather, the AI) could actually do this in all other provinces you own that's not the (converted) capital.

If I understand what you are referencing this "Castle Stacking" exploit was addressed by @Dracko81 on the old forums. I'm not sure the thread survived the transfer; there was a bug report concerning this issue as well. It came about due to a WoL script/event. I do not remember if it was being fixed or not.

 

[grisamentum]

The pope creates bishoprics. The problem ingame is... the game didn't divide between ecclastical hierarchy and secular hierarchy...

Not exactly. The problem is that the game doesn't model the conflict. For most of the game there was no clear division. Only after the Pope won the investiture conflicts in the 12th century, and even then there were significant conflicts between the two.

For example there is no way for the game to handle the Avignon Papacy.

 

[Dracko81]

If I understand what you are referencing this "Castle Stacking" exploit was addressed by @Dracko81 on the old forums. I'm not sure the thread survived the transfer; there was a bug report concerning this issue as well. It came about due to a WoL script/event. I do not remember if it was being fixed or not.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...n-but-they-really-do-need-to-be-fixed.839688/

 

[Will Steel]

Did anyone calculate the maximum levy and cash possible from the three feudal holding types? And special effects like piety from church/temple/mosque and tech speed bonus from universities?

 

[MichaelStakely]

Did anyone calculate the maximum levy and cash possible from the three feudal holding types? And special effects like piety from church/temple/mosque and tech speed bonus from universities?

Here's the base stats without including special buildings like cultural buildings or arsenals or the various bonuses from things like trade zones or ruler stats. The first numbers are just from constructing all of the relevant buildings while the second includes the total levy bonus from buildings. The third ship number is what you get from maxing out shipbuilding.

Castles

240/552 light infantry
270/621 archers
440/1012 heavy infantry
130/299 pikemen
315/724 light cavalry
35/80 heavy cavalry
30/42/54 ships

130% levy bonus
11 fort level
17.3 income
+45% levy morale
+45% levey reinforcement rate
+60 retinue size

Cities

495/878 light infantry
460/816 archers
325/576 pikemen
34/47/61 ships

77.5% levy bonus
6 fort level
31.3 income (46.3 coastal)
+90% tech spread rate
+.15 economic tech points

Churches

495/853 light infantry
430/741 archers
465/802 heavy infantry
30/42/54 ships

72.5% levy bonus
8 fort level
21.3 income
24 ships
+30% tech spread rate
+.08 cultural tech points
+0.35 liege piety

 

[Groogy]

Donno if you guys are still talking about the original topic but anywhay here it goes. We will maybe add in something in this manner in 2.4

 

[Cederian Hendrikus]

I love you Groogy! the "Maybe" is good enough!

 

[MichaelStakely]

That'd be a welcome addition to the game. Glad to hear it's being considered if nothing else.

 

[Hotl3looded]

Donno if you guys are still talking about the original topic but anywhay here it goes. We will maybe add in something in this manner in 2.4

That'd be awesome! I've been waiting for this since my first CK2 game

 

[omega20056]

Donno if you guys are still talking about the original topic but anywhay here it goes. We will maybe add in something in this manner in 2.4

10/10.

 

[Melange_Thief]

Another reason this would be excellent: In counties that have 2 or 3 max holdings, as a Miaphysite sometimes our Holy Order triggers the event to build a castle in a place that doesn't have any other holding type yet, meaning that particular province will never have the full set of castle, city and temple. The ability to switch will hopefully fix this.

 

[Xinkc]

Donno if you guys are still talking about the original topic but anywhay here it goes. We will maybe add in something in this manner in 2.4

Sounds nice, though I hope it's more like shift in holding focus so we get hybrid baron-level holdings. The thought of destroying holdings reminds me too much of the dezoning effects of Cities: Skylines.

 

[witekgreg]

and how about adding a holding? let say by event for Rulers with high stewardship? so we could have full slots even if the province is on Siberia

 

[omega20056]

and how about adding a holding? let say by event for Rulers with high stewardship? so we could have full slots even if the province is on Siberia

That would make sense for temperate and steppes areas, but not for Arctic, desert, mountainous or forested areas.

 

[witekgreg]

That would make sense for temperate and steppes areas, but not for Arctic, desert, mountainous or forested areas.

Yeah of course, not for all, but event like "drying the mashes" or "because of hard work of your faithful citizens a new ground is now ready to be settled"
would be nice

Hah, I'd like to also see some bad events like earthquake/tsunami where one slot (with ruled holding) completely disappear

or for really bad rulers with low stewardship, one unused slot disappears (because of bad management, the fertile ground is not useless...)

 

[Will Steel]

Donno if you guys are still talking about the original topic but anywhay here it goes. We will maybe add in something in this manner in 2.4

This is awesome, you guys are the best. Thanks!

Finally I'll be able to build a stable and balanced empire.

 

[DominusNovus]

Donno if you guys are still talking about the original topic but anywhay here it goes. We will maybe add in something in this manner in 2.4

Great to hear that this is being considered. Personally, I think it would be a great addition insofar as it gives war a permanent cost, and also would help make the diplomatic game more important.

On a related note, it would be worthwhile to consider including, to a small degree, the possibility of war having a negative impact on technology. Not necessarily military technology, of course, but the economic and cultural techs certainly would have stagnated under the chaotic conditions of war. Look at the West compared to the Byzantines during the early period of the game, and the Russians and Islamic states after the arrival of the Mongols. Of course, this is not to say that any old war should carry that risk, but that certain conditions could halt progress on the technological front.

 

[Will Steel]

This is something that makes me think as well. Mesopotamia was a filthy rich area until the Mongol invasion. Mongols destroyed it to such extent that it has not managed to recover to the same level till present day.

 

[Basterbane]

Instead of removing holdings would it be possible to add button to 4th and later holding slots (if province has already build castle, city and bishopric) that would change the holding type. It would be cheaper than building new holding and convert some of existing improvements. To make it less exploitable make it dependable on ruler focus. Businesses or rulership focus to change holdings into city, war focus to turn it into castle, theology(?) focus for bishoprics.

It would not happen instantly. Selecting holding for reconstruction would lead to gold draining events (secure land for resettled people, compensation to local nobility etc.), having steward oversee construction would speed up the process.