I advocate game designers of victoria 3 to review the your map.Because the territory of qing dynasty is inaccurate！

[Sunko]

Please take a look that maps, you see the part of Kazakhstan（Zhetysu and Balkhash Lake）in chinese name("Waixibei“ Outer Northwest”外西北）that was under controlled by qing dynasty at 1830s. Therefore I sincerely recommend that you refer to historical documents and make a map that fits the history！
Thank you!

The area belonged to Dzungar Khanate in the 17th century. When Dzungar Khanate was eliminated by Qing China in 1755 the area formed part of empire and was under the direct rule by General of Ili (Chinese: 伊犁将军), headquartered at the fort of Huiyuan (the so-called "Manchu Kuldja", or Yili), 30 km west of Ghulja (Yining). Most of Zhetysu was annexed by the Russian Empire from Qing China in 1854, before the outbreak of the Crimean War, which delayed the southern advance. The territorial change was confirmed by the Treaty of Tarbagatai, where Russia gained about 350,000 square miles of territory at the expense of Chinese Xinjiang. The two major Russian fortresses and garrisons in the region, Verny and Pishpek, were founded in 1854 on the sites of former Kokandian fortresses on the Steppe frontier.

After a treaty betweens Qing and Russian goverment signed in 1860s, This part was transferred to Russian goverment's Governorate-General of Turksitan.

 

[commune1945]

cool down...

 

[AndrewT]

Several off topic and inflammatory posts deleted.

Nationalism is not welcome here. Move to the Off Topic forum if you must argue along those lines.

First and last warning for the thread.

 

[icedt729]

For OP- several threads have pointed out these issues with the Qing borders and the devs seem to already be aware of them. We'll see how it ends up being handled though.

 

[Lord Canterbury]

I did a bit of research on this area to see what I could fish up about what was going on in 1836. Here is what I found.

From around mid 1600's to the mid 1700's, the area was ruled by the Dzungar Khanate. There name lives on in the OP's first map as Dzungaria. Never heard of them? Neither had I. It seems the reason is that the Khanate, along with 80% of their population were wiped out by the Qing in the Dzungar Genocide of 1755-1757. After that, the Qing settled the area with Han and (ironically/tragically) Uyghur settlers, though the area remained very much steppe frontier.

After this, things get very murky, with no real obvious 'ruler' in the 'lines on a map' sense. The Kazakh Khanate seem to have moved in and taken over the area for much of the next 50 or so years, with it being ruled by their south eastern most tribe, the Senior Zhuz. The Khanate of Kokand got into the scrap. The Qing exerted an influence, if not rule, in the area.

But realistically, it appears no-one 'ruled' it.

This contemporary map shows things best. The area in question is north of Kashgar on the map, labelled as "Country of the Kalmuks". (The Kalmyks being the general catch all term used by western scholars for a large group of mongol tribes. The Kalmyks now live much further west thanks to Russian and then Soviet oppression). The area is most notable in its distinct lack of features. Even Lake Balkhash can't be easily identified. Towns are few and far between, and the closest thing to a governing country is the "Principal residence of the Khan of the Aluths or Kalmuks".

By the mid 1800's, the Russians had conquered much of central Asia, including this area... and a reliable line on a map could finally be drawn.

 

[Aozora Kasuga]

I did a bit of research on this area to see what I could fish up about what was going on in 1836. Here is what I found.

From around mid 1600's to the mid 1700's, the area was ruled by the Dzungar Khanate. There name lives on in the OP's first map as Dzungaria. Never heard of them? Neither had I. It seems the reason is that the Khanate, along with 80% of their population were wiped out by the Qing in the Dzungar Genocide of 1755-1757. After that, the Qing settled the area with Han and (ironically/tragically) Uyghur settlers, though the area remained very much steppe frontier.

After this, things get very murky, with no real obvious 'ruler' in the 'lines on a map' sense. The Kazakh Khanate seem to have moved in and taken over the area for much of the next 50 or so years, with it being ruled by their south eastern most tribe, the Senior Zhuz. The Khanate of Kokand got into the scrap. The Qing exerted an influence, if not rule, in the area.

But realistically, it appears no-one 'ruled' it.

This contemporary map shows things best. The area in question is north of Kashgar on the map, labelled as "Country of the Kalmuks". (The Kalmyks being the general catch all term used by western scholars for a large group of mongol tribes. The Kalmyks now live much further west thanks to Russian and then Soviet oppression). The area is most notable in its distinct lack of features. Even Lake Balkhash can't be easily identified. Towns are few and far between, and the closest thing to a governing country is the "Principal residence of the Khan of the Aluths or Kalmuks".

View attachment 726922

By the mid 1800's, the Russians had conquered much of central Asia, including this area... and a reliable line on a map could finally be drawn.

So it may be reasonable that Qing has cores or claims in the area but russia owns the area, and Qing will lose his claims after Treaty of Tarbagatai

 

[Kaorix]

The beatings you people lay on these poor developer's grey matter. Who else has to put this fine of detail into their games lmao.

 

[Lord Canterbury]

So it may be reasonable that Qing has cores or claims in the area but russia owns the area, and Qing will lose his claims after Treaty of Tarbagatai

Its probably most accurate for the Kazakh's to 'own' it, but the Qing (and maybe Kokand) to have claims (not cores). Historically the Russians then obtained it by conquest (though that conquest seems to have had as much to do with the systematic imposing of forts and administration as it does with armies stomping around).

 

[vyshan]

What if there was an unrecognized nation there that was some sort of vassal to the Qing?

 

[Sunko]

I was quite inspired by “lord canterbury” detailed research. I think you maybe right about the situation of this area, yes, it’s most probably that in the mid age of 19th, nobody actually controlled balkhash lake nether Qing nor russia empire. However paradox can’t make this area unexplored or uncontrolled, so we must find a proper solution to resolve it

 

[Lord Canterbury]

I was quite inspired by “lord canterbury” detailed research. I think you maybe right about the situation of this area, yes, it’s most probably that in the mid age of 19th, nobody actually controlled balkhash lake nether Qing nor russia empire. However paradox can’t make this area unexplored or uncontrolled, so we must find a proper solution to resolve it

I think the most accurate game resolution is control by Kazakhs, with a claim by the Qing. Which seems to be what is currently shown:

As best I can tell, the region was controlled by the Senior Zhuz of the Kazakh Khanate, which had by that time had devolved into a confederacy.

But for those of us who love maps, it is easy to project our views of this area as populated. Modern Google images show how deserted the area still is. We're talking about a line on a map that matters a lot more to politicians in Moscow or Beijing that it does to anyone who lived there at the time.

 

[Sunko]

Yes, Actually we really need to focus on the folks who live on the land instead of Big power
But I think transfer the Senior Zhuz to Kazakh Khanate is not too historically accurate. I‘m wandering that perhaps they should set a country just call Senior Zhuz, which is a vassal state of Qing or Russia

 

[IndigoRage]

The beatings you people lay on these poor developer's grey matter. Who else has to put this fine of detail into their games lmao.

Fuzzy topic since we're trying to enforce borders on people where they aren't really applicable, but this is dealing with kind of a huge land area, so it's be hard to call it "fine detail" when things like the Caucasus still exist to forever ignore for fear of the horror attempting to do something with them will bring.

 

[Limbojack]

You should probably add at least two more exclamation marks to the title, just to make sure that the devs sees it.

 

[The Goldfinch]

Support. Thanks to Tartar Qing's stupid diplomats and weak Emperors we lost a lot of our heaven-given territories throughout the entire 19th century. However Paradox should certainly distinguish different lands we lost according to different treaties.

The "heaven given" part made me laugh so hard.

 

[Jochen_Mongolia]

Support. Thanks to Tartar Qing's stupid diplomats and weak Emperors we lost a lot of our heaven-given territories throughout the entire 19th century. However Paradox should certainly distinguish different lands we lost according to different treaties.

Please don't ruin our beautiful game by your Chinese Nationalistic posts. Remove it kindly please!

 

[Jochen_Mongolia]

There are tools in the main game claiming or coring (Having claim or Core on certain historically disputed areas).
It is settled once and for all by those tools and please never bring again modern territorial disputes related to Chinese hegemonic ambitions here in our peaceful forum!

Thank you.

 

[Yagami913]

This is literally the 128. post about this issue, i think the devs got the point. They change it if they want to. Spamming the forum any more not do any good.

 

[LEVSLIANG]

The Qing Dynasty’s rule over there is indirect at that time.
So I think，It can be expressed by the vassal state, like vic2.

 

[Zavaleta]

Is Victoria 3 going to get banned in China for not conforming to the CCP's official version of history? lol