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icedt729

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Bureaucratic government. Would help the Byzantines too.
I was thinking about this, and I think the key thing that's missing from the in-game imperial and iqta governments is the idea of a bureaucracy that sends taxes up to the top, which then pays it down to a national army. Viceroys/iqta are tax-farming systems, where you hand off a chunk of land and let the governor raise troops off the land's tax revenues. So this is similar to the pronoia of the later Byzantine military (and, as far as I understand it, is also pretty accurate for the iqta system). But a true bureaucratic government would mean national armies funded from the central government, and demilitarized provinces.

So the trade-off here is that a bureaucracy doesn't have to worry about vassal management in the feudal sense, but they need to micromanage the military carefully, curb the influence of generals and ministers, and protect their brittle and top-heavy form of government from disasters. Standing armies are strong, but expensive, and not as numerous as levies. They can't be everywhere at once, and your territory is vulnerable wherever your troops are away. And you can never rule out a palace coup or a military putsch.
 
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Basically, we need a better way to manage a large realm that doesn't involve the emperor personally appointing each minor governor.

Why not have, in a bureaucratic empire, the council appoint viceroys? There should be some benefit to balance it out, but the ultimate result is that, when a viceroy's term is up/dead, you're not the one appointing their successor.
 
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DàbiànLājīdàrén

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  • Confucianism and Taoism added as religions. Tweak Decadence to be both be better and to fit China
  • Bureaucracy mechanics introduced(this also unlocks much needed changes for how Byzantium plays)
  • Maybe a separate Imperial Decay mechanic for Empire-tier blobs to simulate nepotism.
  • Indochina maybe also added to the map.
  • Silk Road expansion to Constantinople and Egypt. (Mogadishu if also a map expansion of Africa)

The only part of Indochina China had significant political contact and influence with was northern Vietnam.

The silk road would also have to be expanded into China, probably with Chang'an as a starting point.

The main feature addition for a China based expansion, and probably a necessary one as well as net benefit for the rest of the game as well, is an imperial empire focused anti blobbing mechanic. The Muslims already have decadence, and some people may think that's not enough, but ideally I'd rather see a more involved system that also improves gameplay in all empires. Of course, China will have some additional features specific to the Chinese region, like the examination system used to choose government officials, but there should also be some mechanics that are globally empire significant.
 
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Bureaucratic government. Would help the Byzantines too.



Because China didn't exisat in the medieval world. Because the medieval world wasn't interconnected. That's wrong. There were not direct connections but indirect connections. There was no magic wall splitting China from the rest of the world.

Sengoku has a total different timeline. Sengoku starts in the 15th century. AFTER the end date of CK2. And Sengoku didn't sell well because it was so limited on a region. Another reason: China need the Steppes to work well. And if the Steppes are in you need the Middle East. And if you have the Middle east you need Europe... you get the problem? The old world was connected.
Sengoku didn't sell well because the game is garbage. Nothing wrong with the setting.
 

DàbiànLājīdàrén

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And if you have China you need Korea and Indochina. If you have Korea you need Japan, if you have Indochina you need Southeast Asia, the list goes on.... but the game can't take all that. Maybe CK 3 can one day, but not CK 2.

Chinese and Korean contact with Japan were largely based on one way cultural transmitions going from China to Korea, and then Japan. The only time Japan has any significant military contact with China and Korea outside of pirating was in the 1592 war, which is outside of the CK2 timeline.

The only part of Indochina China actually had any military influence over was northern Vietnam, so I would consider that important to a China focused expansion, but the rest of Indochina and SEA were only relevant in a trading capacity.

In terms of assessing the most important map additions for a China focused expansion that's not actually part of China proper, I would list the following in descending order of importance:

1. Mongolia - self explanatory. It has Mongols. You can't conquer China as the Mongols if there is no Mongolia.

2. Tibet - The Tibetan Empire was at one point a major contender in influence and power with the Tang dynasty, held all of the Tarim Basin at one point, and even sacked the Tang capital Chang'an. I would add this area for its historical significance and military contact with already existing areas on the current map, as well as its conflicts with China. Also, it would be really weird to have a large black area between the middle east and China.

2. Northern Vietnam - Was a core part of the Tang dynasty.

3. Korea - Had several conflicts with the Tang dynasty but these petered out in the CK2 timeline. However Korea had significant military conflicts with nomads such as the Mongols, Khitans, and Jurchens.

4. Manchuria - Jurchens

5. Japan, Indochina, SEA.
 

melkor88

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If there is a Chinese DLC, I would want it to be able to be turned off. I would prefer the same to be implemented with India to, as I never have any interest in going over there. There are already mods which do this yes, but I want to stay in Ironman.

I would love for a separate game on China, and would preorder that in a heart beat though. But please don't mix that into this game.
 
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If there is a Chinese DLC, I would want it to be able to be turned off. I would prefer the same to be implemented with India to, as I never have any interest in going over there. There are already mods which do this yes, but I want to stay in Ironman.

I would love for a separate game on China, and would preorder that in a heart beat though. But please don't mix that into this game.

I'd like the ability to turn of Europe myself.
 
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icedt729

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In terms of assessing the most important map additions for a China focused expansion that's not actually part of China proper, I would list the following in descending order of importance:

2. Tibet - The Tibetan Empire was at one point a major contender in influence and power with the Tang dynasty, held all of the Tarim Basin at one point, and even sacked the Tang capital Chang'an. I would add this area for its historical significance and military contact with already existing areas on the current map, as well as its conflicts with China. Also, it would be really weird to have a large black area between the middle east and China.
I remember in the past, the devs said they had left Tibet blank in RoI because they couldn't work out succession rules for them. Hopefully they'd figure out something in a China DLC, especially since there'd still be a huge Tibetan Empire in the Charlemagne start.

2. Northern Vietnam - Was a core part of the Tang dynasty.
I think they'd likely fill in at least mainland Indochina as well, because of them only Vietnam would need new China-oriented mechanics. Cham, Khmer, Sukhotai, Nanzhao, etc were Hindu or Theravada realms and could use Indian mechanics. It'd just be a question of titles and faces.
 

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I remember in the past, the devs said they had left Tibet blank in RoI because they couldn't work out succession rules for them. Hopefully they'd figure out something in a China DLC, especially since there'd still be a huge Tibetan Empire in the Charlemagne start.

As interesting as Tibetan history is, in many ways I'm glad the devs did this, because a Tibet that can't interact with China doesn't make sense.
 
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DàbiànLājīdàrén

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I think they'd likely fill in at least mainland Indochina as well, because of them only Vietnam would need new China-oriented mechanics. Cham, Khmer, Sukhotai, Nanzhao, etc were Hindu or Theravada realms and could use Indian mechanics. It'd just be a question of titles and faces.

I hadn't thought about that. If they just use Indian mechanics then ya, it makes sense. Conceptually they should be a lot easier to add in than Tibet.
 

icedt729

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And a Tibet that can interact with China is likely to be banned in China.
Not really. That was an issue with HoI2 but hasn't stopped HoI3 or 4 from selling there, much less any other paradox title.
 
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It should be the first major DLC for CK3.

Not really. That was an issue with HoI2 but hasn't stopped HoI3 or 4 from selling there, much less any other paradox title.

Paradox published games are not officially sold in China at all, though that may change in the future.

https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/...tracts-tencent-as-fan-and-long-term-investor/

I hope we get March of Eagles 2 first.

If there gonna do China or Japan, why not just make Sengoku 2? I almost think they need to focus back on actual Medieval stuff in Europe for the next DLC.

Neither of these games sold very well, they were effectively proof of concepts for CK2 and EU4.

And personally, I rather PDS focus themselves on games with larger scopes than those.
 
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frolix42

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They're available through Steam, but without Chinese localization. There was a whole thread about it not too long ago where a Chinese user was responding to all the censorship claims with "guys, we totally have these games through Steam."

If the MoC decides they want to legitimize Steam, games that are distributed through Steam would have to go through MoC approval.

This is what happened to iTunes Online in April: https://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/apple-faces-censorship-dilemma-in-china

Undeniably the MoC is behind the curve regarding digital distribution of video games, but Paradox wants to do things correctly and to not be made an example of, which is why they are partnering with Tenecent.
 
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killerbee256

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They're available through Steam, but without Chinese localization. There was a whole thread about it not too long ago where a Chinese user was responding to all the censorship claims with "guys, we totally have these games through Steam."
Funny how people don't realise that. On top of that the issue with hoi3 was showing Tibet and war lords as independent during the civil war. That's not really an issue in 768 or 1077!
 

icedt729

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Yeah, the CCP is very touchy about 20th-century history because it can put their own party in a negative light or raise uncomfortable questions about current territorial claims. But there's nobody out there who claims that the Song dynasty ruled Tibet or anything like that.
 

Iron Chariots

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A separate map accessible through its own bookmark, if such a thing is possible.
 
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DàbiànLājīdàrén

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It should be the first major DLC for CK3.



Paradox published games are not officially sold in China at all, though that may change in the future.

https://www.paradoxinteractive.com/...tracts-tencent-as-fan-and-long-term-investor/





Neither of these games sold very well, they were effectively proof of concepts for CK2 and EU4.

And personally, I rather PDS focus themselves on games with larger scopes than those.

Even an actual ban on Paradox games in China would mean very little because frankly Steam isn't popular in Asia at all with the exception of maybe Russia and Korea. As far as I know, the Dota client doesn't even run on Steam in China and they have their own browser clients.