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icedt729

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So, China DLC is a famously contentious issue on these boards, and there are plenty of threads where you can argue for or against one. But here, let's assume that there *is* a China DLC in the works- what kind of mechanics should it include? What areas would or wouldn't be playable? How would religion, culture and laws work? Who would be important characters in various bookmarks?

Again, this thread is not about the merits of adding China or not. It's about how, hypothetically, China would be made to fit into CK2.
 
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icedt729

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Again. If you don't want a China DLC, I get it. There's another thread where you can tell everybody why you don't want it in as much detail as you'd like. You don't need to post here about it.
 
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If there gonna do China or Japan, why not just make Sengoku 2? I almost think they need to focus back on actual Medieval stuff in Europe for the next DLC.
 
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If you want to know what a China DLC should be like, you should look up old threads from a couple years back, when people actually thought that China DLC was a great idea.
 
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  • Confucianism and Taoism added as religions. Tweak Decadence to be both be better and to fit China
  • Bureaucracy mechanics introduced(this also unlocks much needed changes for how Byzantium plays)
  • Maybe a separate Imperial Decay mechanic for Empire-tier blobs to simulate nepotism.
  • Indochina maybe also added to the map.
  • Silk Road expansion to Constantinople and Egypt. (Mogadishu if also a map expansion of Africa)
 
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Again. If you don't want a China DLC, I get it. There's another thread where you can tell everybody why you don't want it in as much detail as you'd like. You don't need to post here about it.

There's also a bajillion other threads about China. How about you post in one of them instead of making another "China China blah blah blah" thread?
 
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icedt729

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Mapwise, at a minimum they would need to include China proper, Korea, and northern Vietnam, and if they went through all that trouble it's hard to see them leaving out Japan. For these Sinosphere countries we're looking at, at minimum, a new religion group and either expanded Imperial government or a new Imperial government type separate from Feudal. Mainland Indochina is maybe not essential, but it would be a pretty straightforward case of adding in cultures and titles, because these states were very Indianized and the existing Buddhist and Hindu mechanics would work reasonably well for them.

Religion-wise, I'm not in favor of separating Confucianism from Daoism. In this game, religion divides up important mechanics, who can and can't intermarry, who is and isn't a valid Holy War or Revocation target, who hates each other- none of these are applicable to Confucians and Daoists (or East Asian Buddhists, for that matter). These should be "schools of thought" like the the Ashari and Mutazili for Sunnis. Millenarian uprisings could make up the heresies for this religious group. Key features would be the schools of thought, polygamy, and lack of Holy War CBs. In exchange for the lack of Holy Wars, they should get fairly strong CBs for use within their own culture groups, similar to the Indian Subjugation CB, to facilitate wars of unification within, say, China or Korea, without giving them powerful tools to expand against different-culture neighbors.

Mechanics-wise, Bureaucratic government would be a major challenge. Delegated appointments, regular promotions and rotations, and the occasional push to make individual titles hereditary (this is what led to the collapse of the Tang shortly after the 769 start date) would all need to be accounted for. This is the single biggest problem for the game and the main reason why I don't think a China expansion will happen. If they can do it, I doubt the AI will be very good at handling an appointment-based government. And the three-holding system that works well for the European nobles-burghers-clergy trifecta doesn't really have a place in the Sinosphere.

Lastly, naming would be a major issue because of few surnames (a lot of them homophonic) against lots of characters. How exactly they could work around that is beyond me.

If there gonna do China or Japan, why not just make Sengoku 2? I almost think they need to focus back on actual Medieval stuff in Europe for the next DLC.
For one, Sengoku was just Crusader Kings with a fraction of the content. There's not much reason to bring it back. Two, it wasn't a large enough success for a new game to really benefit from 'the Sengoku brand.' Three, the Sengoku Jidai was a very short era, so either it'll be a large, expansive game and be mislabeled, or be a Sengoku/March of the Eagles-type game that really doesn't cover any bases for East Asia as a whole.

There's also a bajillion other threads about China. How about you post in one of them instead of making another "China China blah blah blah" thread?
The great thing about threads is you don't have to read them or post in them if you don't care about their topic.

Fun fact: in those threads I've posted that I don't think they will make a China DLC, and probably shouldn't. Either way that decision has already definitely been made by the devs and won't be altered by what we do or don't make threads about. See how I can think that, and still want to have a discussion about a hypothetical?
 
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I think the very first thing the Devs should do is totally revamp the internal management of your realm. A proper empire should be a bureaucratic state, as China and the Romans/Byzantines were, at their best, and as the western Europeans tried to create, and only got around to well after the time period. This should be a totally different playstyle from a standard feudal game, and that means more than just 'pausing every few minutes to hang out the viceroyal title that just reverted to you.' It should be a struggle of centralizing a large state, whereas your aristocrats are constantly going to try to feudalize your empire.

There are so many differences between how to best represent such a state and how far the devs seem to be willing to push the mechanics of CK2 that I'm gradually coming around to the idea that its something to best consider for CK3, on that basis alone.
 

icedt729

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I think the very first thing the Devs should do is totally revamp the internal management of your realm. A proper empire should be a bureaucratic state, as China and the Romans/Byzantines were, at their best, and as the western Europeans tried to create, and only got around to well after the time period. This should be a totally different playstyle from a standard feudal game, and that means more than just 'pausing every few minutes to hang out the viceroyal title that just reverted to you.' It should be a struggle of centralizing a large state, whereas your aristocrats are constantly going to try to feudalize your empire.

There are so many differences between how to best represent such a state and how far the devs seem to be willing to push the mechanics of CK2 that I'm gradually coming around to the idea that its something to best consider for CK3, on that basis alone.
I agree, but I'll add that I think Conclave was a major move towards towards decent imperial government because it gave councillors and advisors meaningful power. Expanding on those mechanics and adding things like permanent regency (for Shogunates or the Korean military government) and you've gone a long way to modeling the capitol-based politics of an empire.
 
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Bureaucratic government. Would help the Byzantines too.

If there gonna do China or Japan, why not just make Sengoku 2? I almost think they need to focus back on actual Medieval stuff in Europe for the next DLC.

Because China didn't exisat in the medieval world. Because the medieval world wasn't interconnected. That's wrong. There were not direct connections but indirect connections. There was no magic wall splitting China from the rest of the world.

Sengoku has a total different timeline. Sengoku starts in the 15th century. AFTER the end date of CK2. And Sengoku didn't sell well because it was so limited on a region. Another reason: China need the Steppes to work well. And if the Steppes are in you need the Middle East. And if you have the Middle east you need Europe... you get the problem? The old world was connected.
 
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if there was a china, it should not be represented except for a one province county on the edge of the map, because it will be as relevant that way as it was in real life to Europe
 
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Bureaucratic government. Would help the Byzantines too.



Because China didn't exisat in the medieval world. Because the medieval world wasn't interconnected. That's wrong. There were not direct connections but indirect connections. There was no magic wall splitting China from the rest of the world.

Sengoku has a total different timeline. Sengoku starts in the 15th century. AFTER the end date of CK2. And Sengoku didn't sell well because it was so limited on a region. Another reason: China need the Steppes to work well. And if the Steppes are in you need the Middle East. And if you have the Middle east you need Europe... you get the problem? The old world was connected.
And if you have China you need Korea and Indochina. If you have Korea you need Japan, if you have Indochina you need Southeast Asia, the list goes on.... but the game can't take all that. Maybe CK 3 can one day, but not CK 2.
 
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