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Crusader Cats

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I've never made a mod before, and I probably won't actually go through with making one. I've recently been spending some time with the Dragon Age games, though (a series of fantasy RPGs from Bioware), and been enjoying thinking about how details of the setting might work as a Crusader Kings II mod. From my understanding there actually already is a mod like that, called "Thedas Kings", but I don't know how lore frendly or up to date with the latest events of the Dragon Age series it is.

I've had some difficulty considering how certain political systems of that setting might be best represented in CK2, though - wondering what other people think. You need not have ever played Dragon Age to give me ideas; I'll provide the necessary lore/explanations here. The first hypothetical problem on my plate is the Kingdom of Ferelden. This is the setting of the first Dragon Age game, so it's very prominent and should be done right. Fitting their system of nobility with the CK2 king > duke > count > baron progression poses a challenge, though...

To quote an explanation of the politics of Ferelden -

"To our neighbors, Ferelden seems utterly chaotic. Unlike other monarchies, power does not descend from our throne. Rather, it rises from the support of the freeholders.

Each freehold chooses the bann or arl to whom it pays allegiance. Typically, this choice is based on proximity of the freehold to the lord's castle, as it's worthless to pay for the upkeep of soldiers who will arrive at your land too late to defend it. For the most part, each generation of freeholders casts its lot with the same bann as their fathers did, but things can and do change. No formal oaths are sworn, and it is not unheard of, especially in the prickly central Bannorn, for banns to court freeholders away from their neighbors--a practice which inevitably begets feuds that last for ages.

Teyrns arose from amongst the banns, warleaders who, in antiquity, had grown powerful enough to move other banns to swear fealty to them. There were many teyrns in the days before King Calenhad, but he succeeded in whittling them down to only two: Gwaren in the south, Highever in the north. These teyrns still hold the oaths of banns and arls who they may call upon in the event of war or disaster, and similarly, the teyrns still hold responsibility for defending those sworn to them.

The arls were established by the teyrns, given command of strategic fortresses that could not be overseen by the teyrns themselves. Unlike the teyrns, the arls have no banns sworn to them, and are simply somewhat more prestigious banns.

The king is, in essence, the most powerful of the teyrns. Although Denerim was originally the teyrnir of the king, it has since been reduced to an arling, as the king's domain is now all of Ferelden. But even the king's power must come from the banns.

Nowhere is this more evident than during the Landsmeet, an annual council for which all the nobles of Ferelden gather, held for almost three thousand years except odd interruptions during Blights and invasions. The sight of a king asking for--and working to win--the support of "lesser" men is a source of constant wonder to foreign ambassadors.

--From Ferelden: Folklore and History, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar"
 

Korbah

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You'd have to do some adaptation due to how CK2 is setup but basically;

Fereldan = A King tier title.

Teyrns could approximate to very large, powerful Duchies. Ferelden itself could be divided into 3 Duchies along the lines from the lore, with Denerim forming the third Duchy and held by the crown.

Arls sound like they're basically just the original Marcher Lords of England and the related concept of Markgrafs in the HRE. They were powerful lords that had effective free reign over specific regions, almost like "mini-Kings" as they were expected to protect the frontier borders of their respective Kingdoms against external enemies (a bit like the romans settling tribes on their borders if you think about it). You can simulate this I guess with unique localisation for certain titles, a new form of minor title or possibly even special council job roles which have no job actions but come with the Marcher titles. In other words, it's an interesting concept you could have a lot of fun finding an implementation that you like.

Banns (and therefore Arls) would be Counts.

Freeholders would be Baron tier.

You could of course shift this all up a tier making Fereldan an empire tier with kingdom tier localisation, teyrns would be Kings, arls and banns would be dukes, freeholders would be counts and barons would be... something else.

As for the "democratic" nature of Fereldan. Sounds like a simple Council-controlled Feudal Elective Agnatic-Cognatic situation top to bottom.

I say Agnatic-Cognatic because DA at the end of the day is really generic high fantasy, and agnatic-cognatic is the most generic succession style (note that before any takes offence, there just because something uses long established tropes doesn't mean it's inherently bad, DAO was a great RPG in my opinion, but it was still rather generic).
 

TheTeaMustFlow

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Worth noting that there is a Dragon Age mod in development, actually. Not really sure about progress, but there's dev replies from only a few days ago and a beta update from September, so it still seems to be alive.

I'd say Ferelden is a pretty good fit for elective monarchy all the way down, but I'd definitely call it cognatic rather than ag-cog, since it's explicitly stated that the sexes are equal in Ferelden and I don't recall that anyone ever suggested that Anora's claim was weaker due to being a woman. It would also have rather loose council laws, though I wouldn't put that as an inherent part of its government but something that could be reformed in the usual manner.

You could make arguments for making it kingdom or empire tier. Personally, I'd lean towards it being similar to the kingdom of Italy in vanilla - a rather large kingdom, with an empire that includes only it in its de jure but requires controlling other kingdom titles to form (in this case, probably requiring some of the Orlesian vassal kingdoms). FWIW, the Thedas Kings mod appears to have it as empire tier.

"To our neighbors, Ferelden seems utterly chaotic. Unlike other monarchies, power does not descend from our throne. Rather, it rises from the support of the freeholders.

Incidentally, I always found that line rather odd, given that of Ferelden's two immediate neighbours (Orlais and Orzammar), one of them is another elective monarchy.
 

Crusader Cats

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@Korbah

Yeah, I was thinking that myself, in terms of the council system. I like your suggestions re: the arls - thanks! The thing I was thinking, though, is that freeholders aren't really nobles from the sound of it (and so shouldn't hold, say, castles). I interpreted them as being basically yeomen - a land-owning farmer class. With that in mind, I was imagining I could either

A) Make the arls/banns baron tier (which would be disadvantageous, both because every baron tier title in CK2 must be part of a county, and secondly because CK2 baron tier titles are unplayable and necessarily stripped down of features in the simulation)

B) Make the arls/banns county tier, which would pose the problem of the fact that there should be no one "lower" on the noble rung. Unless one represented the castle holdings as landed knights, I suppose? (Which do seem to exist.) It wouldn't quite fit CK2 precedent, but...

About representing Denerim is a teyrnir, that's the unusual thing. According to this, it *was* once considered a teyrnir, but later downgraded to an arling... But as is seen in the game itself, said arling isn't held by the crown. Denerim is the capital and the location of the royal palace, yet there seems to be a separate Arl of Denerim (who has his own separate palace in the city). I'm not sure what to make of that. Their explanation here seems to be "the whole kingdom is the king's domain", but realistically (and in terms of CK2 mechanics), a king should hold land of their own as well...

@ TheTeaMustFlow

Yep! I remembered the sexes being more or less equal. Was definitely planning to make it Ag-Cog (Edit: Uh - Cognatic, I mean. I get those mixed up >_>. The one where females inherit on equal grounds). Not sure on being able to conquer parts of Orlais to make a de jure empire - it's historically been something of the reverse, hasn't it? ;P (Though that reminds me a little of what I was thinking of for the Free Marches - but that's a discussion for another day).

Is the Dragon Age mod you're talking about called Thedas Kings? I didn't look into it enough to be clear if it was out yet or not.
 
Last edited:

DeltaCortis

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Is the Dragon Age mod you're talking about called Thedas Kings? I didn't look into it enough to be clear if it was out yet or not.

It is. And its playable-ish. Lots of unfinished stuff. Very much in an early state.
 

Semigall

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While I would definitely like to see the said mod being developed to a more playable state than it is currently in, I see no point why you had to make a separate thread about it again.