Hungary needs an update+Hungary Map suggestion

[Cyberman01]

As all regions around Hungary like Poland, Ruthenia, Balkans, Germany and Italy got complete makeovers with updates, Hungary has been left as a relic of a bygone era of blobby and large provinces in a Europe where tiny provinces like Dobrzyn exist. It has been 4 whole years since Hungary got a handful of new provinces in the Mandate of Heaven update. Currently Hungary is a weak kingdom that lacks any depth, falling apart more often than not. I believe a small patch to bring Hungary up to the same standarts as the rest of central europe is needed. I just opened up paint and drew lines, splitting provinces and creating new ones. I know the map is ugly however I am posting this more to get attention to the topic rather than the map I made anyway.

I extended the Carpathian mountains west and north while adding 2 gaps to better represent the geography of the region. I know the province borders I drew are ugly. I tried to draw lines following rivers in some areas like Moldavia. I also think buffing the development in the region a little bit is neccesary. Hungary is too weak and poor and usually gets steam rolled by its neighbours. I also don't really understand why there is a Transylvanian culture. I believe removing it and adding Hungarian and Romanian provinces in Transylvania would be more accurate. Also adding the Serbian culture in the new province in the south would be sensible.

Edit: Current map for comparison.

 

[Entrone]

As all regions around Hungary like Poland, Ruthenia, Balkans, Germany and Italy got complete makeovers with updates, Hungary has been left as a relic of a bygone era of blobby and large provinces in a Europe where tiny provinces like Dobrzyn exist. It has been 4 whole years since Hungary got a handful of new provinces in the Mandate of Heaven update. Currently Hungary is a weak kingdom that lacks any depth, falling apart more often than not. I believe a small patch to bring Hungary up to the same standarts as the rest of central europe is needed.

Glad you agree that Hungary needs a rework, but let me add my version I made like 2 years ago, you can find it in my signature:

Note the difference in the Carpathian Ranges. The most important pass is this one in Borgó. And there's no need for such a Northern Carpathians, there were several ways through them.

I also don't really understand why there is a Transylvanian culture. I believe removing it and adding Hungarian and Romanian provinces in Transylvania would be more accurate.

Agree, I've posted a quite balanced suggestion about it back then.

Also adding the Serbian culture in the new province in the south would be sensible.

Disagree, that was Hungarian before the Ottoman Wars (1526-).

 

[Zanetich]

Agree, i hate these "Torontal" and "Bács" current shape.

 

[Pbhuh]

Hungary is definitely in need of an update.

But I think the entirety of the Balkans and South/Southeastern Europe needs some love.

While Emperor definitely improved some bits.

Others are still lacking.

Bosnia in my opinion is still a mess. Wallachia and Moldova can definitely get some new provinces, if alone just to fix current bad borders.

But really, there is just problems here in total.

Ottomans stomp the Balkans and Austria has a far too easy time getting a union over Hungary.

There are more design issues at large here, with the developers wanting to make Austria a strong nation, so that it can be a superpower somehow? Not sure why they cant just make the division between Sigismund, Ladislaus and Frederick 3 more pronounced and have it affect the situation better. With Ladislaus perhaps becoming King in Hungary and giving up Austria Proper to Frederick or whatever.

Anyhow, rant over. But yeah, would love to see some more things here.

 

[Kewlkhat]

Hungary is definitely in need of an update.

But I think the entirety of the Balkans and South/Southeastern Europe needs some love.

While Emperor definitely improved some bits.

Others are still lacking.

Bosnia in my opinion is still a mess. Wallachia and Moldova can definitely get some new provinces, if alone just to fix current bad borders.

But really, there is just problems here in total.

Ottomans stomp the Balkans and Austria has a far too easy time getting a union over Hungary.

There are more design issues at large here, with the developers wanting to make Austria a strong nation, so that it can be a superpower somehow? Not sure why they cant just make the division between Sigismund, Ladislaus and Frederick 3 more pronounced and have it affect the situation better. With Ladislaus perhaps becoming King in Hungary and giving up Austria Proper to Frederick or whatever.

Anyhow, rant over. But yeah, would love to see some more things here.

in my games, the ottomans never expand in the balkans to the same level they did historically.

 

[Pbhuh]

in my games, the ottomans never expand in the balkans to the same level they did historically.

What I believe is missing is the Battle of Mohacs disaster/event.

That's what truly just made southern europe fall apart and split between the Austrians and the Ottomans.

So thats what I think is missing.

 

[Donlad]

i would really love to see Rusyns and Translyvanian Saxon / Carpathian German become cultures in such an update. maybe even Cumans and Székelys although they would violate the 'three province rule' for adding new cultures unfortunately

going off from your other Hungary suggestion i could see these cultures being allocated this way:

Rusyn: Nowy Sacz, Maramaros, Bereg
Carpathian German: Királyföld, Beszterce, Szepes, Tirgoviste
Székelys: Maros (violates prov rule)
Cumans: Kunság (violates prov rule too but i really want them ingame)

good job with the map brother

 

[Entrone]

i would really love to see Rusyns and Translyvanian Saxon / Carpathian German become cultures in such an update. maybe even Cumans and Székelys although they would violate the 'three province rule' for adding new cultures unfortunately

going off from your other Hungary suggestion i could see these cultures being allocated this way:

Rusyn: Nowy Sacz, Maramaros, Bereg
Carpathian German: Királyföld, Beszterce, Szepes, Tirgoviste
Székelys: Maros (violates prov rule)
Cumans: Kunság (violates prov rule too but i really want them ingame)

good job with the map brother

Carpathian Germans are a different group, you mean Transylvanian Saxons. They are the only addition that really makes sense, they inhabited Királyföld and 2potential new provinces: Beszterce and Fogaras.
No need for Rusyns, it's just Ruthenian with slightly changed language because of the big mountains separating them from the rest of east slavs.
No need for Székelys, as they are not really a culture but an estate, like the cossacks.
No need for Cumans, they largely assimilated at this time,

in my games, the ottomans never expand in the balkans to the same level they did historically.

When you see maps that paint most of Hungary Ottoman coloured that's misleading. The Ottomans had a very weak grip on the region, they could never rule it truly, as they had no real hope of taking Wien. Simply too far from their powercore at that time.
The problem here is that I don't even see the Ottomans declaring war on Hungary. Most of the time it's like "ah you guys already ate Serbia, I better go take the Caucasus"

What I believe is missing is the Battle of Mohacs disaster/event.

That's what truly just made southern europe fall apart and split between the Austrians and the Ottomans.

So thats what I think is missing.

A Battle of Mohács event-chain would be really useful. I think Hungary is still relatively weak compared to it's historical feats even thoug it shouldn't be too strong either. Events for Mohács (which would let players evading the disaster, but the AI mostly could fall for it) could do the job, as the loss was mostly the reason of inner Hungarian nobility schemes.

 

[Mingmung]

I've made a thread on this matter a few months back, as well

Sacra Corona; Provinces of the Hungarian Crownlands and Siebenbürgen

Hello there! It's been a while, but I'm once again posting a suggestion for Europe. This time Hungary has come to my attention. The beginning of the EU4 timeline can be seen as the rise (and subsequent fall) of the great Kingdom of Hungary; It...

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Let's hope Paradox will touch this region soon.

 

[Donlad]

Carpathian Germans are a different group, you mean Transylvanian Saxons

i’m saying you can merge them for convenience and in order to make a new culture. there would be no real reason to keep Transylvanian Saxons separate from Romanian Germans or Carpathian Germans and would give the new culture a couple more provinces.

 

[Entrone]

i’m saying you can merge them for convenience and in order to make a new culture. there would be no real reason to keep Transylvanian Saxons separate from Romanian Germans or Carpathian Germans and would give the new culture a couple more provinces.

Neither of the other groups makes up for a province. In later phases of the game Danube Swabians could be another one, but that's just fine as Austrian.

 

[Donlad]

the capital of Wallachia at this time had a large Saxon quarter that would slowly be integrated during game time period. and the province of Szepes in this thread's Hungary suggestion was majority German.

so they do have provinces for it, and they should be phased into a new Carpathian German culture alongside Transylvanian Saxon.

 

[Entrone]

the capital of Wallachia at this time had a large Saxon quarter that would slowly be integrated during game time period. and the province of Szepes in this thread's Hungary suggestion was majority German.

so they do have provinces for it, and they should be phased into a new Carpathian German culture alongside Transylvanian Saxon.

That there was a German quarter in a town (which wasn't rare at the time) doesen't mean that 10'000 sq km province should be German. In reality never ever Germans came even a bit close to be the majority in any region of the Romanian Principalities.
As opposite Királyföld province could be Transylvanian Saxon, because it was a nearly completely German at the time, especially the towns, especially Brassó. It's nonsense to make Targoviste (I guess that's what you are referring to) any kind of Germanic.

Regarding Szepes, there was a sizeable German community, but still not sizeable enough to flip the province in their favour.

So there are no provinces for it, as there shouldn't be something like Carpathian German, which is unhistorical and unaccurate.


I understand that you wan't to see more cultures represented where it's possible, but there it's not. If Hungary get's an update, the only new culture needed is Transylvanian Saxon, which could be either in the Carpathian or the Germanic group. That's all.

 

[Donlad]

but i am not pushing for a separate Carpathian German culture, I want them bunched with the Transylvanian Saxons.

also, being conservative with adding new cultures while also removing Transylvanian does not look favorable in my opinion. yes, removing Transylvanian makes sense. but I do not think Paradox would look favorably upon adding so many provinces only to make them either Hungarian or Romanian. alongside only two new German culture provinces which violates the "three province rule." there needs to be more stuff here for Paradox to justify updating the Pannonian Basin, they don't just change the region for balance sake. they prioritize new tags and cultures.

i still 100% support your map and I agree that Hungary seriously needs an update. i just feel like any major map rework in this game has always been intrinsically linked with adding those things.

 

[Entrone]

but i am not pushing for a separate Carpathian German culture, I want them bunched with the Transylvanian Saxons.

I got it, and it's not even baseless, as the Szepes (Zips as they say) Germans were the second biggest German speaking group in Hungary before the Turkic Wars (behind Transylvanian Saxons obviously). After those wars, from 1688 on there was a very large scale Germanic (and other European, like Scandinavian or French but they assimilated soon) immigration. These new waves were called Donauschwaben (Danubian Swabs) and they soon became the largest Germanic group, inhabiting several regions, the most important being the Transdanubian Mountains-Buda axis, Baranya and Bács counties, and the Banat around Temes.

Personally I'd like an event, in case there's high devastation in the Alföld, to reduce the devastation very significantly, maybe even boost the development, in change for turning a few provinces, most importantly Temes, and the optional new provinces of Veszprém (cut from Fehér), Baranya (cut from Somogy) and Bodrog (from Bács) to Swabian/Austrian. For gameplay reasons the latter is better imo, as Swabian and Saxon were just sysnonyms for German in medieval Hungary, it does not mean most of them actually came from there. For example Transylvanian Saxons were mostly from the Rhineland, not Saxony.

This map is from the second half of the 19th century, therefore it does not portray accurately the 15th century numbers of Carpathian (and Transylvanian) Germans, whose share decreased continuously through the times because of emigration, assimilation and lower birth rates. Yet we can conclude that carpathian Zipser Germans were never such a numerous and dominant group as the Transylvanian Saxons.
When Germans started to arrive to Hungary (and other countries east of them) in the 13th century, they got privileges to lure them in larger numbers, which together with their cultural advantages helped to cement their economical dominance. But over time this dominance vaned, they blended with local cultures and ultimately became part of their host nations. In Upper Hungarian mining towns it was especially true, which were mostly tri-ethnic cities by the 15th century with a Slavic, a Hungarian and a German community.

also, being conservative with adding new cultures while also removing Transylvanian does not look favorable in my opinion. yes, removing Transylvanian makes sense. but I do not think Paradox would look favorably upon adding so many provinces only to make them either Hungarian or Romanian. alongside only two new German culture provinces which violates the "three province rule." there needs to be more stuff here for Paradox to justify updating the Pannonian Basin, they don't just change the region for balance sake. they prioritize new tags and cultures.

i still 100% support your map and I agree that Hungary seriously needs an update. i just feel like any major map rework in this game has always been intrinsically linked with adding those things.

You are right regarding that more colourful suggestions may be more appealing for the devs, but let me clear that I'm not conservative on new cultures, rather the opposite, if you scroll through my suggestions you can see I proposed quite a few new groups that have been overlooked so far like Kashubians, Ingrians or Cilicians.
But in this case there's no basis for new cultures in the region except the Transylvanian Saxons, if there was I'd have proposed it already. For them there's 3 provinces if we split Királyföld in two and add Beszterce.

I'm optimistic that the devs will do something about Hungary very soon, like every month they get a new suggestion on this topic. My main hope is that Northern and Eastern Europe will get a large scale update how Western and Southern did in the 1.30 patch. And I wish Austria won't be left out, it's weird that the Alpine parts have higher province density than Lower and Upper Austria, which have always been more popolous.

 

[Donlad]

okay i understand you man. i apologize if i derailed the suggestion a bit. like i said earlier i like the maps, and hope for some Hungarian changes soon

and yeah you’re right about Austria and Eastern Europe. although they both recieved provinces in Emperor, those regions could of been better handled. here’s hoping for the future