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    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

badger_ken

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Hi all, here is my After-Action-Report (although right now it's the In-Action-Report) for Hungaryin Eu3.

While I played EU1 a few times, this is my first EU3 session - I'm a believer in the "no reloads" school, too, so I'm sure you will see some mistakes in my play - please enlighten me!

Why play Hungary? Well, a few reasons:
1) I visited Budapest once :)
2) I never played it in EU1
3) I didn't see any other Hungary AAR's in this forum

What more do ya need! Off I went....

First, I looked (a lot) at the Country tips for Hungary on the EU3 wiki, there are two sets of tips there, but sadly both appear to be out-of-date, and furthermore they directly contradict each other! So after much head-scratching, off I go....

At start, ruler is Zsigmond I ("Ziggy1") - 4/3/3 stars A/D/M, but in ledger is shown as 7/6/6 - hmm. Good, at any rate :).

My Grand Plan is to fight the Turks to the last Wallachian/Transylvanian, and hold on.

The Army is nearly non-existent - I move the slider one pip towards 'Land', and start biulding a mixed infantry/cav force - I built them 50-50, in hindsight this was a mistake, I would have done almost entirely cav.

I get 2 great advisors, 5-star on +15% to stability, 6-star! on +18% to trade investment.

My first national mission is a Royal Marriage in Austria - sounds good to me! An embassy in Slavonia moves my relationship to 150, and the marriage is accepted, moving my stability to +2 - what an easy game!

My next mission is to DOW Poland - WTF? What insanity is this? Sigh.

1401 - the Turks are now at peace, uh-oh...

1402 - poland and lithuania DOW Moldavia, I don't notice until the war is half over :(, gotta figure out how to change those settings.... Poland winds up annexing Moldavia.

1403 - the Timurid empire collapses! Bad news for me...

War #1: vs. Bohemia
Spring 1404 - a random event gives me a -1 stability hit (ouch), but a Causus Belli on Bohemia - hmm, I have nothing against Bohemia, but
  • I'm getting bored
  • Bohemia is already at war with Denmark, they might be easy pickins',
  • Bohemia is allied with Aquilea (?), the little state in NW Yugoslavia, maybe they will join the party and I can snap them up.

So I DOW, my first war. To my surprise, Aquilea dishonors the alliance w/Bavaria - it's just me on them. To not-so-much a surprise, Venice dishonors their alliance with _me_. Oh wll, I always knew you couldn't trust the Venetians.

The invasion of Bohemia goes swimmingly - Bohemia still has a significant main army in the field, roughly the same size of mine, but I have twice the cavalry and a good military emperor leading the troops personally. In an 8 month campaign, I smash Bohemia, the climactic battle coming in the Palatinate (the scurvy Bohemia dogs had fled there for sanctuary), which wipes out the Bohemian army to the man.

Spring 1405 - I now have 4 Bohemian provinces (including the capital), and their vassal, Silesia, under my control:



I decide to seek peace now, as I'm having issues already with the Danes "beating me" to snapping up other provinces, and, short of total annexation (which the rule make sound like a Very Bad Idea), I doubt I'll get another province anyway.

Sadly, other than Moravia, all the other Bohemian provinces aren't reachable (the capital province blocks it), and having disconnected provinces seems like a bad idea - one revolt and bye-bye. So, instead, I just take Moravia, and go ahead and annex Silesia - bye bye Silesia. The rules imply that this is a Big No-No, but I've seen lots of others doing it without a problem.

I take advantage of my increased prestige to get an alliance with Austria - yay!

the bad news, almost immediately there is a large rebellion in Moravia.

the good news is, somehow, I am now the papal controller!

Things continue quietly, i decide to press a border dispute with Poland, gaining a core in someplace-i-don't-care-about, but it's in line with my national mission.

For the same reason, when the Teutonic Order asks for an alliance in Aug. 1406, I agree - hope i won't regret this!

At the end of 1406, a war breaks out between most of the Italian states, and the Ottoman empire, including Bosnia and Serbia - I have a feeling that if I were cleverer, I would have been able to exploit this, but I have no CBs, and am still trying to nurse my bank balance back to health (I only figured out the 'force limit' part last year :()

War #2: vs. Poland
November 1407 - Poland (and Bohemia, oddly) go to the defense of Mazovia, against Denmark - I have a CB against Poland, I will watch this carefully, and perhaps join in the fun when the time is right. My revolt percentages are still around 7% in Moravia and Silesia (is this typical?), which has been keeping the army pretty busy. I hold my breath and decide to DOW Poland - given my alliances, and their existing war with Denmark, I don't know that there will ever be a better time.

The Teutonic Knights join me, but Austria does not - about what I expected. Again, the campaign goes well in the first 6 months, as I easily quickly take Krakow (the Polish capital!), and sweep through their vassal Moldavia. However, the problem isn't Poland, it's Lithuania, which sends wave after wave of armies against me, each as strong of mine - I barely fight them off, but then when the Polish main army joins in the fun, and I get a revolt in Moravia, I'm on the wrong side of the trend, and things go from bad to worse as the Teutonic Order declares a peace. When after 6 months of this I finally get Poland to accept a White Peace (in Spring 1409), I breathe a huge sigh of relief, especially as my "DOW Poland" mission had been replaced with a "don't let Poland conquer Budapest" mission - both now accomplished!

In the Now for Something Completely Different department - I note that Ireland has been divided amongst England, Brittany, and Aragon!

War #3 ("The Happy War"): vs. Aquilea

I twiddle my thumbs for a few years, finally my treasury gets to a healthy level.
In Summer 1414, Urbino DOWs Aquilea, along with some other buddies of mine, and they ask me to join in. They don't need to ask twice! I quickly romp through Aquilea, the only fly in the ointment being that somehow the Papal states beats me to the punch on one province. When it's time for peace, in Spring 1415, I debate between vassalizing Aquilea, or annexing some provinces. I decide that as they _are_ Slavic, and I'll get tired of constantly defending them as Vassals, I go ahead and annex, leaving the papacy one odd stranded province that serves as a western buffer. Even better, this war has let me fulfill my next (weird) national mission - having a bigger navy than Aquilea.



The annexation raises my manpower limit from 20 to 23, nice! I build 3 more cav.

The only fly in the ointment is that my next mission is to have a larger navy than - the Ottoman empire! Gulp!

Feb 1416 - Venice plinks off Ragusa.

December 1416 - government tech 4, at last! A new National Idea! given all the fighting I've done already, and plan to do, I take Military Drill. while I'm at it, I pay the prestige hit and abandon the foolish quest to have a larger navy than the Ottoman empire. It gets replaced by "Reclaim Sieradz", a quest to grab a province from Poland. Groan, I hate fighting those guys. Oh well.

March 1417 - Wallachia, whose independence I had guaranteed, gets in a war with the Ottomans, yet oddly I don't get a Causus Belli against the Ottomans. Hunh. The turk quickly snaps 1 of Wallachia's two provinces - they are growing ever nearer....

November 1418 - hapless Wallachia gets DOWed by Poland Lithuania, I am asked to help Wallachia. Sigh - I couldn't hold the Terrible Twins off when Denmark and the Teutons were both fighting them, all by myself this seems a very tall order! On the other hand, I _do_ have a national mission to take Sieradz from Poland, and I hate letting a buddy down. On the other other hand, if Poland and Lithuania get sucked into Wallachia, maybe the Turk will attack them instead of me. I decide, regretfully, not to intervene.:(

I twiddle my thumbs for a number of years - perhaps I'm being too cautious, but the Turk isn't moving, Poland/Lithuania are far too strong, and I'm chary of getting involved in Italy with the Turk an ever-growing threat. I will need these guys as friends, not foes. I accept an alliance from Denmark in 1425 as a check against the Poles, who grow ever-stronger - they absorb Mazovia, and are at war with Bavaria. I keep waiting for either the Turk or the Russian to check them, I can't do it alone. Check out how Poland and Turkey have been expanding right next to me, oh my:



Things go quietly for 5 more years, except for the odd rebellion (man, these provinces take a long time to quiet down)

amazingly, little Aquilea gets one of its provinces back from the Papacy! Well played, fellows! I immediately send them a warning so I can DOW them in the near future :)

And so this is where we are in 1426, when Ziggy I dies after a long, and in my biased opinion successful, reign. We have gained 4 provinces, built up a nice treasury (I think around 350 ducats), and our army is maxed out. The only real issues are that Poland/Lithuania to my northeast, and the Ottomans to my southeast, have been implacably on the march.

Here's my new ruler, Lajos II:


nice, huh! Too bad he's so lacking in diplomatic skills, oh well you can't have everything.

So, fellow forum members, it's 1426, what should I do?

  • sit tight and focus on research and the treasury?
  • try to snap up a province in Italy? Might regret it when the Turks come knocking thoug.
  • Try to weaken Poland (how)?
  • Try to weaken the Turk (how?) - I have been periodically lobbing spies at them to forment revolts/rebellions in Wallachia and environs, but seemingly to no effect, though this missions nearly always succeed.
  • Backstab Austria (which has been totally quiet so far)
  • Other?
 
Last edited:

stnylan

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I'd say weaken the Turk, though to do that perhaps you need to just be opportunistic for them to be busy fighting a war with someone else.
 

badger_ken

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I'd say weaken the Turk, though to do that perhaps you need to just be opportunistic for them to be busy fighting a war with someone else.
Thanks, the main problem is I've been unable to find a way to get a CB on them - any tips? Should I just not wait for a CB?
 

phargle

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Guarantee their neighbors.

Do you need a CB to declare war on a religious enemy? I don't think so. . .

Turkey's weakness is its navy (all galleys), not its army. Those pictures are loading veeeeeery sloooooowly for me - are they huge? - so I cannot see if you have the Adriatic, but build a fleet if you do, and then get into a naval war, after making sure they don't have access through your neighbors.
 

L Lawliet

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True, you don't need a CB on heathens. From my experience the best thing would be to annex transylvania, dow the Turks, scorch earth wherever they send their largest army and wait for the attrition to take its toll. Then murder them.
 

sprites

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you are playing IN s you don't need a CB on the turks
beware they can be quite strong too :D
 

badger_ken

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"There's no 'Quit' in "Ottoman"'

First, many thanks to those of you who responded to my last post. I appreciate the advice, and it's also nice to know these things get read! I hope you don't mind if I continue to make this more of an interactive AAR, I thought it might make a nice change from the "and then I inexorably conquered another province" school of AARs.

And now, back to our show - when we left noble Hungary, it had just gotten a new ruler, Lajos II, stats of 8/3/6 (admin/diplo/military) - seems born to conquer, and then pacify.

As to what happens next, it depends on whether you like in-character or out-of-character posts:

in-character: the old King had grown timid in his old age - his son, the new King, suffers no such scruples, and decrees immediate preparations for an assault on the cursed Turk!
out-of-character: thanks to this forum, I find out you don't need a CB against the Turk - thanks folks!

I personally tend to find in-character reports a little twee, so will give mainly out-of-character, hope that's ok.

War #4: vs. Turkey

It's Spring 1426 when Lajos accedes to the throne, I take a few months to reposition my army and move army maintenance to 100%, and then DOW Turkey in May - a little later than I'd like, oh well.
As I hoped, Bosnia and Serbia unite with the Turks - my primary goal in this war is to claim them. Naples joins me -- to my sorrow, neither Denmark nor Austria (double drat) do. Trusty Transylvania is at my side, however.

At the start, everything goes fantastically - several turkish provinces turn out to be either in rebellion, or actually enemy-occupied:

I easily smash the armies of Bosnia and Serbia and plink off some tiny Turkish contingents. It's not until August that I see something that gives me pause, an 11K Turkish force (9K cavalry!) seiging rebels in Burgas - just north of Constantinople. I unify my cavalry and then go to give battle, and soundly defeat Suleyman "the not-very-Magnificent".
I give pursuit and a few months later wipe out his force entirely.

I magnamously open peace negotions with the Turks, only to find them unwilling to accept even a White Peace!

I then spend an entire year (a) taking even more Balkan provinces, I'm taking them from Rebels now as there are no Turks in sight, or (b) repelling the Turks, whose main army (all infantry now, and about 7K big), resides on the NW coast of Asia Minor, and every few months crosses over, loses a few hundred soldiers, and then retreats back. I can't pursue them, as the straits are controlled by a Turkish fleet of 19 galleys - my entire navy consists of 3 galleys :(. As you can see from the attached screenshot, I've now taken something like 11 provinces (including the 2 Bosnian and the 2 Serbian, have never lost a battle, my "war score" is at 28%, and yet Turkey won't give an inch - it's now 1429.

Here's the war scoreboard:

I feel that I can't really attack anywhere else, due to the Turkish navy.
Is this Turkish intransigence because of my low diplomatic skills? Because I'm fighting over what the Turk controls non-essential parts of his empire? Because I'm just too impatient and need to wait for War Exhaustion (note that his at at 11% - how bad is that)? What do you suggest, O Wise forum:
 

badger_ken

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If you have money id suggest building some ships to take on their navy, but that will take some time.

Why havnt you taken provinces in a peace deal from serbia and bosnia yet? are they vassals of the ottomans? I cant remember since its been so long since ive played vanilla.
yes, they are both vassals - i can't negotiate with them :mad:
I had thought of even just offering Turkey a "White Peace" and then annexing bosnia/serbia, but Turkey won't even go for White Peace.
 

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You could occupy the rest of Ottoman Greece and try to bait the ottoman fleet with a suicide boat (or fleet). That should keep them away for long enough for you to cross the bloody strait.
EDIT: Also, if you didn't already, get military access to Byzantium, you should be able to cross the strait faster from Constantinople.
 

badger_ken

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You could occupy the rest of Ottoman Greece and try to bait the ottoman fleet with a suicide boat (or fleet). That should keep them away for long enough for you to cross the bloody strait.
EDIT: Also, if you didn't already, get military access to Byzantium, you should be able to cross the strait faster from Constantinople.
I tried, the fools denied me permission!
 

stnylan

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It can get a bit frustrating.

I don't recommend this, but in one game I played (as Poland) when I faced the same issue, I ended up conquering all the territory around the Black Sea. But in that particular game I had decided to play without a navy, so I ended up doing several weird things.
 

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Ooh, I just had another particularly clever idea if the one already presented doesn't work. Try to get Military Access around the Black Sea. However this is not likely going to work so - improvise!
 

badger_ken

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"Out with the Turks, in with the Poles"

To recap - I am at war with the Turk, and have conquered all of non-rebelling Turkish Balkans - however, the Turk shows no desire to surrender, and his navy is blocking me from carrying the fight into Asia.

After consulting the forum, I decide on a passive, "wait them out" strategy - building a massive navy will take too much money and time (and seems too ahistorical), making my way around the Black Sea only slightly less so, also to do that I'd have to go through Poland and the Golden Horde, the former of which hates me and the latter is at war with me!

So instead I institute a "troop rotation" program, reducing my strength in the Balkans so that I still have enough to easily repel a Turkish incursion, while the other guys can heal up a bit. The other component of my strategy is lob revolt-causing spies at them, hoping for a Turkish collapse (this latter tactic, though every time I did it the spy succeeded, seemed to have no effect at all :().

I do this for about 6 months, and then when rotating one of my troops back from the homeland to the Balkans, mistakenly order it to go into Asia - and it starts doing so! I immediately hit "pause", and note that for whatever reasons (a revolt in Rhodes seems the most likely), the Turk has moved his navy away from the straits! I immediately order my entire army into Asia. The Turk eventually races back, and only about 80% of my army makes it across, but that's enough (of course, the other way to look at it is that he's trapped 80% of my army in Asia!).

I methodically chew my way through Turkish Asia Minor, including wiping out to a man, for the second time, the main Turkish army (this time only 7K big). Again, however, the Turk refuses to surrender, even to a White Peace! I eventually conquer most of the Turkish provinces in Asia, leaving him only eastern Turkey. Oddly, I can't figure out which province is his capital, as the little "crown" icon doesn't show up on any province - hmmm. The other real problem is that my manpower levels are scraping bottom, I have under 1K men left in it, and my army is very gradually getting smaller and smaller - I'm getting worn down.

War #5: vs. Poland

This is where we are in June 1431, when the worst happens - much-stronger-than me Poland DOWs me, joined by also-much-stronger-than-me Lithuania! Ay, Dios Mio! Oy Vey! They have chosen their timing extremely well - my manpower level is nearly zero, and almost all of my army is in Asia. Luckily, my cavalry had just been rotated back to Europe - at least I'll have _somebody_ at home.

I immediately offer peace to the Turks, and to my great surprise, now that things are looking great for them, _now_ they are willing to hand me gobs of provinces! I grab a swath of the southern Balkans (Bulgaria, Macedonia, and the environs), which should put major hurt on the Turks - they still have Greece, which is in revolt and largely rebel-occupied, and which they can no longer walk to, and the muslim provinces surrounding Constantinople. A province on the coast of Macedonia has even rebelled and joined Byzantium!

As the Turk has deserted his vassals Bosnia and Serbia, I can now do as I wish with them at the negotiating table. Rather than annex them, which I worry will make me hated at a time when I need friends, I instead reduce each to a 1-province state, and drain their treasuries of around $150 - my plan is to offer Poland an immediate large bribe, and a province, for peace.

This leaves me with an odd empire for the moment, see the map. My empire's lower part is now disconnected from my upper part, I can only get there by going through Transylvania, Serbia, or the suddenly-very-important Montenegro. Hopefully this will get better with time, but I wanted to get land while I could, while still freeing myself for fighting the Litho-Poles. the map now looks like this:


My offer to Poland is rejected, drat :(. Here's our force comparisons for the new war - it's not looking good at all:


I can already see 4 armies (2 Polish, 2 Lithuanian), each of which is stronger than my cavalry force. My strategy, therefore, is Fabian - I will keep my cavalry together, strong enough to plink off small forces of his, and hope that attrition will whittle down his large forces - I also might try to take on _one_ of his 4, if they stay spread out (there's one sitting in Wallachia all by its loneseome). I have the cavalry immediately swing into the border provinces and scorch them, and then regroup on Budapest. While my manpower pool is out, at least I can draft some mercs - my plan is to lob them behind enemy lines, and/or retaking provinces - the more time he spends chasing my mercs, the less time he's spending conquering my territory.

The Fabian strategy starts off with a resounding thud, as Ratibor (modern-day Silesia), surrenders to an artillery-less 14K big Polish force in only 41 days! I don't know if he's really lucky, or what, as my sieges tend to take much longer - it appears that the 18K big (gulp) Polish stack simply assaulted twice, overwhelming the defenders with numbers at the cost of 4K men. That he can act so cavalierly with 4K men (my entire army is only around 16K) is making me quite nervous.

I try every trick in the book (or at least in my book!) - using spies to encourage revolts and desertions (do spies _ever_ do anyting? As in Turkey, the missions almost always succeed, and I never see anything happen :(), using "scorched earth", hiring mercenaries, carefully husbanding my cavalry, getting a +40% on forts expert advisor, and yet I feel like a fish being slowly reeeled in - there are just too many of them (also, I must say, I give kudos to the AI - their attacking maneouvers were very sound). The "highlight" of the year is when I (barely) relieve a seige of Budapest:


However, after a year and a half of this punishment, things are looking grim - the enemy has taken 4 of my provinces, is about to take 2 more, Greek rebels have taken 2, and worst of all, two large stacks are again advancing on Budapest - I'm not strong enough to resist either. Check out the force comparison now:



The only "good news" is that, I've been steadily probing to see what the Pole would take for peace, and after a long period of rejecting all offers, my diplomacy screen tells me they will settle for "only" 2 provinces. I'm wavering, when something else happens - tiny Montenegro, whose independence I had guaranteed due to its great strategic position, gets DOWed by Venice. Montenegro asks for my help. Hmmm .... Venice has no allies, and owns tiny Ragusa next to Montenegro. If I bite the bullet and make peace with Poland, perhaps I can spank Venice a little, as Aquilea has already granted me passage I should be able to take the Venetian capital (note afterwards - I hadn't realized that the Venetian navy can keep you from walking from northern Italy into Venice) and perhaps extract some nice financial tribute. I decide to give it a go!

War #6: vs. Venice

First things first, ending the war with the Terrible Twins - on the Day after Christmas, they accept a peace offer in which I give them Silesia (Ratibor), who I had taken from Bohemia a few wars ago, Carpathia (bummer), and give up my core on their capital (Krakow). I swear undying hatred on Poland, but it will have to wait - I plan to spend the next 10 years rebuilding my country, putting down rebellions, and, oh yeah, spanking Venice....

The war proceeds uneventfully (for once), as I spend more time chasing down Balkan rebels (Greece is on fire, as Byzantium is reborn! Check out the pic):



I end the war after about a year and a half, taking $50 (not much, but it's all they had), asking them to release Ragusa as a sovereign nation (they would have surrendered it, not just freed it, but somehow Montenegro was the victor of record, and my generosity has limits :)), as well as Sardinia (hey, why not).

Wow, that was quite an action-packed few years! My plan now is to rebuild, put down rebellions, perhaps convert a province or two to Catholocism, and then do whatever I can to bring Poland down! The Balkans are getting quite .... Balkanized, I hope there will be a chance to pluck off the odd one-province country or two as well. I think that I've put a big dent, perhaps a permanent one, in the expansions of the Turk - it may be that Byzantium will never fall.

And so that's the way it is, Feb 1434 - a lot of action for just 4 years!
 

stnylan

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That sounds like a sensible peace trading provinces for some years of peace up in the north. Time to prepare for an accounting with Poland though.
 

Murmurandus

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As Ive just started my first real game of EU3 just lately (as Burgundy), this is an interesting AAR to follow... ;)
 

badger_ken

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Why you should never be the junior member of an alliance...

True to my word, I spend 10 years rebuilding. This works out well, as without a war going on I easily put down a huge number of rebellions in my recently acquired Balkan provinces (I would guess 15 revolts in 10 years), while also converting 2 provinces to Catholicism, building a bunch of temples, and finally diplomatically annexing Transylvania. My leader isn't very good diplomatically, but I am offered (and eagerly accept) alliances with Brandenburg, Sweden, and Pomerania - between the three, I've got a nice counter-weight to Poland -- if they honor the alliance!

The Bad News is that Poland continues to grow, knocking out the Teutonic Order and turning it into a vassal state. The Teutons had no allies, my intervening would have been a sure loser. Grrr..... - I have to hand it to the Poles, they've been playing things extremely well.

And so there we are in March 1446, when .... . The Terrible Twins (Poland/Lithuania) DOW on the Golden Horde Interesting! The Golden Horde is large, and I hope can put up a decent fight - they have the largest army in the world (57K), the same as Poland (29K) and Lithuania (28K). I am very, very tempted, but decide to wait a year, and see whether the Horde, and an Asian winter, can knock them down a peg.

And then, in December 1446, I get this fascinating missive:

It looks like Sweden DOWed Mecklenberg for some reason, and the Poles, who have allies _everywhere_, went to their defense. I'm still not that crazy about the odds, as Sweden doesn't appear very strong, but I think this is about as good as I'll ever get - I accept Swedens call to arms and join the war! Poland is in my sights at last!

Wow, now that I'm in the war, I open the war status window, and my heart sinks:


It appears that I have about 75% of the strength in the alliance (although this doesn't count the Golden Horde). Even with the Golden Horde, we are still easily outnumbered overall. Sigh.

Here's the geo-political situation:


I spend the best $20 I've ever spent in this game, and infiltrate the Polish administration - lifting the fog of war is _exttremely_ valuable when facing a large nation.

I am caught rather flat-footed, as all my army is in the Balkans stamping out rebellions - I immediately embark on a crash recruiting program, and move my armies towards Poland. My plan is to "flood" as many of their provinces as possible with small siege forces (to better "parallel process" the very long sieges), while using my large cavalry forces to smash their armies.

This tactic generally works very well (for once!), as I am able to defeat the Poles (and the surprisingly strong Palatinate - they have a 15K strong army!) in detail, as they tend to rush small armies at me of 5 or 10K, which I can handle one on one.

While my campaign is going well, one of the other members of our alliance, Tver, bows out, paying Poland a huge $842, gulp:

Things generally go well for me though, as I win battle after battle, take Ruthenia, Wallachia, Budjak, and am about to take Krakow (the Polish capital), when .....



the perfidious Swede pulls the rug out from under me, settling for a white peace! As the junior partner, I have no say in the matter. Grrrrr.

Double grrrr - I now have a 10 year truce with Poland!

I decide that I will never accomplish my mission of conqueriing Sieradz (in the middle of Poland), and cancel it in disgust - my new mission, which seems much easier, is simply to get a royal marriage and a +100 rating with Austria:


So now I'm all wound up (large military), with no place to go. Oh, and I just hit land level 6 - my units just upgraded.

Since it'll be 10 years before I can DOW Poland anyway, I turn my sights back to the Turk. The Byzantines have been fighting them a while, and doing quite well - they own about 2/3 of Greece, have occupied much of the rest. There are 3 Turkish provinces by Rumania that are hanging on isolated, also I think that if I DOW Turkey I might get Bosnia and Serbia to DOW me, which will let me knock them out of the game. On the other hand, based on my last war with Turkey, they might shrug and ignore me :(.

What do you think, O forum members?
 

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Letting your frustrations out on the Turk seems an entirely reasonable thing to do :)
 

Murmurandus

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badger_ken

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update through 1450

In light of the overwhelming consensus of this forum (OK, 2 responses :)), I decide to slap the Turk around.

I wait about a year just to let my manpower pool rebuild, and to redeploy my armies, and then DOW in May 1449.

War #8 - vs. Turkey

The alliance cards fall perfectly, as all my allies join in the fun, and most importantly Bosnia and Serbia sign their death warrants by joining the Turk.
The only negative wrinkle is that Syria, and the Mameluks (Egypt), both join the Turk - sigh, I'm fighting much of the western Middle East :(. Probably because of this, the balance of forces isn't as nice as I would like:


The war goes rather smoothly at start, except for a few things to note:
* The Polish train rolls on, as they end their war with the Golden Horde, gaining yet another province - man, who will ever stop these guys???


* I have an odd experience with the dynamics of battles - can someone enlighten me? The situation is that my full-morale all-cavalry force jumps on his smaller, mostly infantry, low morale force (whether by attacking, or by beating him to the place he's retreating to, or even by having him walk into me), and we fight, and he breaks almost immediately, and yet I lose many more troops than he does! What the .... ? For example, check out this typical result:

. What's going on here? In this grab my force has no leader, but I get similar results even with my King (7 military) in charge. Any tips?


* In the middle of the war, Byzantium, which is at peace with Turkey, asks for military access. I'm not sure why they want it, but I decide to grant it - the Byzants and Turks spend most of their time fighting each other, I'm happy to help Byzantium stay alive and strong.


* still pretty early in the war, and my ruler dies! Too bad, he was a good 'un - the replacement, Andras IV, however, is even better!, though not quite as good militarily:


* Using my new king's improved diplmatic skills, I complete my mision to improve relations with Austria. This is replaced by .... a "Naval Race" mission (groan), against Milan. Odd. Looking at the ledger (which I generally try not to do, it gives _so_ much information that I think it's not really fair), I see that they have 7 galleons, to my 4 - - seems doable


* So there we are in August 1450 - the war has been going on a little over a year, I've conquered almost all of European Turkey, and it's deja vu all over again - I've been pinging the Turk and they've been unwilling to offer even a White Peace. If this goes like it does last time, this means that they won't offer me anything significant until I've conquered about 2/3 of Anatalia. While I've done this before, and my army is much stronger now, on the other hand he now has Syria and Mamelukes on his side, and Mamelukes are the senior partner - I worry this might be a very long and hard slog against a bigger population base.

So when Turkey offers me a White Peace, even though I've taken 4 of his provinces, I accept. This lets me annex Bosnia and Serbia - I now have true Blob status :):


So here we are in August 1450 - I'm at a bit of a strategic crossroads - Oh Mighty Forum, what do you suggest? Let's recap the situation:
To the SOUTH, the Ottomans have been dealt a major setback ( by yours truly, thank you very much :)) - Bosnia, Serbia, Bulgaria, and Macedonia have all gone from their side to mine, while the rest of Greece has gone to Byzantium. I feel like I've reached the point of diminishing returns here - I don't want to attack Byzantium, this seems counter-productive, and the effort for the reward on attacking the Turk keeps going down
To the NORTHWEST, my buddy Austria has been quiet as a mouse, I think they've grabbed one or two provinces in Northern Italy. We have an alliance and a Royal Marriage - why rock the boat?

To the NORTH, Bavaria and Bohemia have both been very quiet - Poland and I have each taken a province from Bohemia, it's not really a threat. I can't really expand into Germany, however, unless I do it by walking through Austria, which makes me more vulnerable in case of backstab.

To the WEST, Italy sits there, it seems like I could make hay there, but (a) I would have to walk through Austria, again with the risk of backstab, and (b) they aren't cultuarlly similar, and it seems like it might be too much of a diversion from.....

To the NORTHEAST, the Terrible Twins (Poland and Lithuania) are terrible indeed. Since the game has started, they have gotten steadily larger, including vassilizing the Teutonic order, and somehow making Muscovy their ally. They've defeated Sweden, the Golden Horde, and yours truly. They seem by far the #1 threat (and they own one of my provinces, which burns my pride), but I admit I don't have any idea on how to hurt them - they are so strong that only a Grande Alliance of all their neighbors will work, and that seems nearly impossible to put together.

So, what do you recommend?