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unmerged(40707)

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it will mean 3 years less time on BB, it could also make a difference on the choice by the AI for options a or b
What do you mean? AI choice should be A in 95%.

BTW, why was not relation hits put in instead of BB ?
Ask the author...
 

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Doesn't secured mean controlled?

I always thought Normandy and Caux controlled by England at start was in order to represent this situation.


I was guessing he meant owned and I was pointing out that Rouen wasn't even captured at that point let alone owned.
 

Toio

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I was guessing he meant owned and I was pointing out that Rouen wasn't even captured at that point let alone owned.

yes, i meant owned
secured = owned
occupied = controlled

As I said , rouen could easily represent picardie on our map, due to the fact that caen was owned by 1417.
Its my guess that the original writer of this quest had the 1419GC start with ENG seiging picardie , representing rouen
 
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Also, remember the tricky nature of the HYW in general. Generally speaking, provinces owned should be the result of formal treaties (Troyes, Arras, &c.) as well as general consensus.

If something was simply besieged and held against the general will of the inhabitants, it should simply be controlled.
 

Toio

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Also, remember the tricky nature of the HYW in general. Generally speaking, provinces owned should be the result of formal treaties (Troyes, Arras, &c.) as well as general consensus.

If something was simply besieged and held against the general will of the inhabitants, it should simply be controlled.

this is the scenario below and I think you are confused when I mention caen and u think i am saying Caux ( which rouen is the capital)

In july 1414, Henry asked for Catherine in marriage plus Normandy, anjou and maine from the french king

Jan 1415 , the french king offered
Catherine in marriage, 800,000 crowns and Caux (our map)

14 july 1415, another offer from the french king
Catherine in marriage, 840,000 crowns plus some towns in th limousin, one being Tulle. ( remember poitou area was english at this stage)

26 july 1415, Henry V ignored all forms of communication with the french king and prepared for war

He landed in normandy and most places made a treaty with Henry or where quickly seiged and taken

October- battle of Agincourt, many french nobles died and Henry retained all his normandy lands
he went back to england via calais and his army seiged rouen in CAUX (our map)

As far as I am concerned normandy should already be secured by the English by 1419, as well as picardie, Caux should be foughtt for

So starting 1419 GC should be
normandy = english owned
Picardie = English controlled
Caux = french owned
as well as Ile, champagne and niversais be french owned.

The annexation of the French once they own only ile should be done by BUR as they destroyed the almanacs in their invasion of Paris in 1420/1421

I do not know if it will work properly in our game
 
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this is the scenario below and I think you are confused when I mention caen and u think i am saying Caux ( which rouen is the capital)
No, I was just making a standard point about the transfer of provinces when it comes to peace treaties, but thank you for assuming I was mistaken. :p

Toio said:
In july 1414, Henry asked for Catherine in marriage plus Normandy, anjou and maine from the french king
Not sure where you got this... it is my understanding that the Armagnacs offered Henry the 1369 borders (Aquitaine), Henry then refused and demanded Bretigny borders, the duchy of Berry and the crown of France itself (Summer 1414).

Toio said:
( remember poitou area was english at this stage)
Poitou had long-since been lost by then. Check your maps.

Toio said:
26 july 1415, Henry V ignored all forms of communication with the french king and prepared for war
Parliament voted (insufficient) taxes for war as early as November 1414, but Beaufort states that Henry had definitely decided on war by April 1415.

Toio said:
So starting 1419 GC should be
normandy = english owned
Picardie = English controlled
Caux = french owned
as well as Ile, champagne and niversais be french owned.

Hmm, I don't think Normandie should be owned by ENG... the French (that is, the King... Paris..) had made no formal treaty with Henry by this point. It was war, Henry had taken the area by force - it was not legally his.
 

Toio

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No, I was just making a standard point about the transfer of provinces when it comes to peace treaties, but thank you for assuming I was mistaken. :p


Not sure where you got this... it is my understanding that the Armagnacs offered Henry the 1369 borders (Aquitaine), Henry then refused and demanded Bretigny borders, the duchy of Berry and the crown of France itself (Summer 1414).


Poitou had long-since been lost by then. Check your maps.


Parliament voted (insufficient) taxes for war as early as November 1414, but Beaufort states that Henry had definitely decided on war by April 1415.



Hmm, I don't think Normandie should be owned by ENG... the French (that is, the King... Paris..) had made no formal treaty with Henry by this point. It was war, Henry had taken the area by force - it was not legally his.

i got info from here

http://books.google.com/books?id=HwyxXkYlh_EC&printsec=frontcover&dq=agincourt#PRA1-PR2,M1

Did the king of france rule normandy or was it ruled by the dukes of normandy who perished at agincourt?
 
Jan 9, 2005
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Did the king of france rule normandy or was it ruled by the dukes of normandy who perished at agincourt?

Normandy was part of the royal domain, it did not have a duke until Henry V made himself so. Louis XI's brother Charles was duke of Normandy in the 1460s/70s for a short while (as a result of a peace treaty), but there wasn't a duke from then until Louis XIV made the duke of York (the future James II of England) duke of Normandy in the 1660s or 70s, and this was purely as a gesture of goodwill to Charles II (his brother), and was purely political.

Aside from Charles (Louis' brother), there was no real duke of Normandy after Philip Augustus absorbed it into France proper, though the English monarch retained the title (and still does).
 

Toio

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I had a game recently where ENG defeated "old"FRA but only took money and no lands , so ENG ended up only owning calais and gasgogne.

Should ENG minimum holdings in FRA be its historic ownership of Calais , gascogne and Normandy?

If correct then my initial issue that normandy in 1419 GC should already be owned by ENG

thoughts?
 

unmerged(40707)

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This was AI decision. A very strange decision... I'm not sure what can be said but maybe England preferred a lot of money and cores are not lost anyway...
 

Toio

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another issue with 100YW

In 50% of my games, by 1428 ENG owns Ile, Normandy, Calais, Caux and Gasgogne.......then around June 1429 with "new" FRA, ENG give to FRA all their french lands , so ENG has nil...........I cannot find why

ALSO

#(1435-1480) Bordeaux Calls Upon the King of England for Help
event = {
id = 164189
trigger = {
NOT = {
owned = { province = 424 data = -1 }
}
}
random = no
country = ENG
name = "EVENTNAME164189" #Bordeaux Calls Upon the King of England for Help
desc = "EVENTHIST164189"
#-#Always attached to the English market, Guyenne reacted in a negative way in the first years of the return to France. Agitation soon changed into a general uprising, and the city of Bordeaux, which feared ruin with the end of the purchases of wine by the English, called upon the King of England.

date = { day = 0 month = january year = 1435 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1480 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME164189A" #Let us Reclaim our Stronghold
command = { type = INF which = 424 -2 value = 5000 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -100 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = FRA value = 36 }
command = { type = treasury value = 50 }
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME164189B" #Let us Leave Them to Their Fate
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 50 }
}
}


................................

#(1427-1430) The push for Guyenne
event = {
id = 164182
trigger = {
event = 164171 #ENG: The Legacy of Charles VI
OR = {
owned = { province = 411 data = -1 } #Orléanais
owned = { province = 411 data = BUR } #Orléanais
}
NOT = {
event = 164181 #ENG: The Loire Valley Offensive
event = 361024 #DAU: The Collapse of the Kingdom of Bourges
}
}
random = no
country = ENG
name = "EVENTNAME164182" #The push for Guyenne
desc = "EVENTHIST164182"
#-#In 1427, the position of Henry VI in France was still not ensured due to the resistance of the Dauphin and the widespread support he was receiving. To make matters worse, Burgundy seemed to be putting forth a lackluster effort towards pacifying the rebels in the south. Though Bedford wished to solidify the Lancastrian holdings north of the Loire, the Earl of Salisbury demanded firmer action and fervant prosecution of the war against the Dauphin in the name of the Treaty of Troyes. Bedford finally settled on the aim to unite England's northern and southern territories. Salisbury was saddled with this monumental task. Letters patent signed in Henry VI's name granted Bedford the Duchy of Touraine, while Salisbury was promised the county of Poitou.

date = { day = 1 month = april year = 1427 }
offset = 90
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1430 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME164182A" #This campaign is in the interests of the Treaty of Troyes
command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
command = { type = INF which = 424 -2 value = 10000 }
command = { type = CAV which = 424 -2 value = 3000 }
command = { type = war which = DAU }
command = { type = addcore which = 417 } #Vendée
command = { type = addcore which = 418 } #Poitou
command = { type = relation which = BUR value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = DAU value = -50 }
command = { type = wakeleader which = 046304 } #Earl of Salisbury #Salisbury (ENG)
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME164182B" #Persue a consolidative course
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = BUR value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = DAU value = 50 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 164008 } #ENG: Maine and Anjou are Pacified
}
}
 

unmerged(40707)

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Only problem with proposed modification in ENG_164182 is we are not sure Guyenne will be owned by England. Infantery and Cavalery will not appear in this case. Is it affordable?
There was less problem with original event and capital location. Same for ENG_164189 if Guyenne is not controlled (but province will be owned for sure because of the trigger).

About the cession of the provinces, I have no idea for 1429 (no such event in HYW_England events file) but it could happen after 1435. See HYW_MIsc events file.
 

Duc de Guise

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#(1435-1480) Bordeaux Calls Upon the King of England for Help
event = {
id = 164189
trigger = {
NOT = {
owned = { province = 424 data = -1 }
}
}

random = no
country = ENG
name = "EVENTNAME164189" #Bordeaux Calls Upon the King of England for Help
desc = "EVENTHIST164189"
#-#Always attached to the English market, Guyenne reacted in a negative way in the first years of the return to France. Agitation soon changed into a general uprising, and the city of Bordeaux, which feared ruin with the end of the purchases of wine by the English, called upon the King of England.

date = { day = 0 month = january year = 1435 }
offset = 30
deathdate = { day = 0 month = january year = 1480 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME164189A" #Let us Reclaim our Stronghold
command = { type = INF which = 424 -2 value = 5000 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = -100 }
command = { type = casusbelli which = FRA value = 36 }
command = { type = treasury value = 50 }
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME164189B" #Let us Leave Them to Their Fate
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = FRA value = 50 }
}
}

is it wad :confused:
 

unmerged(40707)

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Oups, without the indentation, I didn't see the NOT operator...

In this case, adding inf in Guyenne while province is not owned for sure doesn't make sense.
 

Toio

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Oups, without the indentation, I didn't see the NOT operator...

In this case, adding inf in Guyenne while province is not owned for sure doesn't make sense.

oops, I missed this NOT as well

below is the event that needs amending

#(1427-1430) The push for Guyenne
event = {
id = 164182
trigger = {
event = 164171 #ENG: The Legacy of Charles VI
OR = {
owned = { province = 411 data = -1 } #Orléanais
owned = { province = 411 data = BUR } #Orléanais
}
NOT = {
event = 164181 #ENG: The Loire Valley Offensive
event = 361024 #DAU: The Collapse of the Kingdom of Bourges
}
}
random = no
country = ENG
name = "EVENTNAME164182" #The push for Guyenne
desc = "EVENTHIST164182"
#-#In 1427, the position of Henry VI in France was still not ensured due to the resistance of the Dauphin and the widespread support he was receiving. To make matters worse, Burgundy seemed to be putting forth a lackluster effort towards pacifying the rebels in the south. Though Bedford wished to solidify the Lancastrian holdings north of the Loire, the Earl of Salisbury demanded firmer action and fervant prosecution of the war against the Dauphin in the name of the Treaty of Troyes. Bedford finally settled on the aim to unite England's northern and southern territories. Salisbury was saddled with this monumental task. Letters patent signed in Henry VI's name granted Bedford the Duchy of Touraine, while Salisbury was promised the county of Poitou.

date = { day = 1 month = april year = 1427 }
offset = 90
deathdate = { day = 29 month = december year = 1430 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME164182A" #This campaign is in the interests of the Treaty of Troyes
command = { type = treasury value = 100 }
command = { type = INF which = 411 -2 value = 10000 }
command = { type = CAV which = 411 -2 value = 3000 }
command = { type = war which = DAU }
command = { type = addcore which = 417 } #Vendée
command = { type = addcore which = 418 } #Poitou
command = { type = relation which = BUR value = -50 }
command = { type = relation which = DAU value = -50 }
command = { type = wakeleader which = 046304 } #Earl of Salisbury #Salisbury (ENG)
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME164182B" #Persue a consolidative course
command = { type = stability value = -1 }
command = { type = relation which = BUR value = 50 }
command = { type = relation which = DAU value = 50 }
command = { type = sleepevent which = 164008 } #ENG: Maine and Anjou are Pacified
}
}
 

Third Angel

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Good catch, Duc de Guise, I had a quick look and missed that. Of course, this event seems to be specifically designed for a Guyenne lost too early to France, adding the extra troops there is of no use.

Now, paying more attention to the other proposal, I think it's also wrong to add the troops in Guyenne. The event is meant to represent an English offensive south of the Loire from the North of the Loire, that is why Orléans has to be held. I reckon that there is indeed a problem with ENG transfering troops from London so maybe they should be added in Normandy or Paris, don't you think?


EDIT: cross-posted with Toio, we don't know for sure that ENG will hold 411, Normandy (either one of the two provinces) or Paris would be better in my opinion.
 
Last edited:

Toio

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Good catch, Duc de Guise, I had a quick look and missed that. Of course, this event seems to be specifically designed for a Guyenne lost too early to France, adding the extra troops there is of no use.

Now, paying more attention to the other proposal, I think it's also wrong to add the troops in Guyenne. The event is meant to represent an English offensive south of the Loire from the North of the Loire, that is why Orléans has to be held. I reckon that there is indeed a problem with ENG transfering troops from London so maybe they should be added in Normandy or Paris, don't you think?


EDIT: cross-posted with Toio, we don't know for sure that ENG will hold 411, Normandy (either one of the two provinces) or Paris would be better in my opinion.

We agree in that they be placed ( new troops) directly on the continent, Orleans seems the more logical as normandy might not be in ENG hands, Calais, CAUX or ILe de france I am unsure

I like to remove from trigger the BUR line and add a control of 411 for ENG
 

Third Angel

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We agree in that they be placed ( new troops) directly on the continent, Orleans seems the more logical as normandy might not be in ENG hands, Calais, CAUX or ILe de france I am unsure

I like to remove from trigger the BUR line and add a control of 411 for ENG
No big deal for me, it's just that the event will be less likely to fire.
 

unmerged(40707)

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Same reasoning as Third Angel.

Raising troops directly in the English capital is "safer" anyway.
 

Toio

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Same reasoning as Third Angel.

Raising troops directly in the English capital is "safer" anyway.

yes, true.....but the AI will not send them to where they need to go, ........if the event does not fire, so whats the loss?
If the event fire , the troops will be guaranteed to be placed in orleans if orleans is owned and controlled by ENG