Humans, the strength?

[unmerged(494828)]

Having playing for some time, I can't tell who's better - Monsters of Undead. Old Trolls are great, but Elder Vampires are fun as well if properly used and scouting Bats bring a lot of early loot. However, I don't see any strong points for Humans.

Humans are different, that's not a question, but in most areas their difference is just weak point.
- Humans have strong melee units of low tiers, but weakest ranged ones.
- Human scouts are archers (with lowest health between archer units). This looks quite suicidal to scout with low-health archer.
- Humans require additional building for archers and rangers.
- Humans have Catapult as their unique unit, but it can't be used without strong front-line support, which humans don't have. And it's much weaker than other uniques, even Dracolich.
- Humans have the lowest number of unique resource buildings.
- Gold focus looks good, but from my experience mana focus of Undead is stronger (due to Mana Farms) and monsters aren't any weaker. Humans produce more gold, but they require more gold as well. The Monsters' food acts the same.

One guide on the forum suggested for humans to wait for temple units and upgrade regular units to them. But other races could do the same, and other race's temple units aren't weaker.

Does anyone understand, in which area humans supposed to be strong?

 

[player1 fanatic]

Humans do have some of the best temple units. And most of their units can be upgraded to temple units (unlike undead, for example, which have no unit that can upgrade to temple units).

Also, Mages are great. Can be even gotten very early: build mana trap, library and then wizards guild in new city.

And silver weapons can really help a lot in early game to beef early foot and ranged units.

P.S.
Usually, I when I play humans, I complement their troops with some troops I recruit in conquered neutral cities of other races. For example, in early game goblin archers/sharpshooters just seem much more durable then human equivalent.

Also, more often then with other races, I use what resource units I find: elven archers, halbediers, stubborn knights, minotaurs.

 

[unmerged(102954)]

Also, more often then with other races, I use what resource units I find: elven archers, halbediers, stubborn knights, minotaurs.

Isn't that the point, though? That the humans' own units should be pulling their weight?

 

[unmerged(494828)]

Yes, Mages require 3 buildings, but that's the same as monsters with either Shamans or Werewolves. Vampires require 4, but you get Bats on the way, who are fantastic scouts and Vampires are much better than Mages.

Point about upgrading to Temple units is valid against undead. Monsters have about the same number of upgrades. And from discussions here http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?609285-Any-units-or-combos-too-strong-too-weak I don't see human temple units to be much stronger.

Isn't that the point, though? That the humans' own units should be pulling their weight?

Exactly.

 

[unmerged(35022)]

My impression is that the only real good thing about humans is that gold is the most important resource.

 

[unmerged(494828)]

My impression is that the only real good thing about humans is that gold is the most important resource.

Yep. But human units and buildings require much more upkeep gold. This, plus by balancing number of cities with different specialization makes each race having more or less the same resource output for the same number of cities. At least I have such impression. Probably Undead are even better in overall resource output due to mana farms.

 

[Skyhunteren]

But upkeep is very low compared to the cost of late game units and perks. A gold dragon may have an upkeep of both 15 gold, mana and food, but it cost 2000 gold. Now this is a late game bonus, but I think humans are very much a late game race. They have an okaish start game, weak middle game, but fantastic late game.

 

[unmerged(493757)]

Yup, human is the best late game.

Human is all about religion. Many player said that human best point is temple units. But that's wrong, human best strength is not temple units, it's in fact the 2nd best strength, human best strength is Divine Spells, because human have access to all gods except Grum-Gog, human can have hybrid Divine Spells, of course this means that you must not spawn an avatar of the gods.

Have you tried a combo of 50 Dauros and 50 Krolm with human or 50 Fervus and 50 Lunord?

Your jaw will be dropped in awe. Now if you don't want to try it yourself and wondering why this is the case. Allow me to enlighten you.

50 Dauros and 50 Krolm not only provide you with the most offensive temple units the humans has (Paladin of Dauros and Krolm Blade Master), but also a super enchant combo of one hit kill any enemy units you encounter. Dauros allows you to lock that enchantment, means it can't be dispelled by any dispell in the game (even Nullify and Krolm's Nullify), you can also use Immune to bane spell provided by Dauros.

I assume that Multiplayer has been released, and Your enemy (a Human player, not AI), have trouble some elite unit that is heavily enchanted and provided with all equipment in the game available to that unit? Dispell all of his enchantments with Nullify, then Lock your enchantments then cast Krolm Beserk (+100% unit power, basically means Damage x2), i guarantee a one hit kill to all kind of his elite unit. All your enemy enchantment is laughable to you while you can enchant anything to your units without fear of dispell. Basically this means that direct confrontation is a one way to defeat for your enemy. Paladin of Dauros and Krolm Blade Master is one of the hardest opponent to face in direct confrontation.

Ok, that is your late game option, a combo that beats Monster and Undead combined.

Now let us see what is human early-mid game option? or even an option againts the broken old troll spam? Fervus and Lunord Hybrid provide easy solution to this.

Explanation? Ok, Human often have lots and lots of Rogues, by the time you have Lunord temple, all these Rogues have the potential to turn to Assassins, those mass old trolls won't stand a chance againts mass assassins. Not to mention that if you recruit lots of rangers, these rangers can be upgraded to Beast masters, mass beast masters. Dauros-Krolm combo can also do this if you recruit a lot of Warrior early, but because many human cities will be focused on gold, Rogues is easier to be spammed. Dauros-Krolm favor quality over quantity, Fervus-Lunord favor quantity over quality.

In case of Divine spells, 50 Dauros and 50 Krolm basically allow your temple units and other late game units (like gold dragon) to become insanely powerful because of Power enchantment spells provided by Krolm and the ability to make those enchantments Un-Dispellable provided by Dauros. 50 Fervus and 50 Lunord provide you with ok Divine Spells, but it is inferior compared to Dauros-Krolm.

Summary: Human is all about religion and the freedom to worship 2 or even 3 gods at once. 2 Gods hybrid is for those that need Divine Spells, 3 Gods hybrid is for those that doesn't care at all about Divine Spells but need Temple Units variation.

 

[endbringer177]

Human is best race atm imo.
Advantages of mages(=capability of killing Greater Fire Elementals very early) and gold output are far bigger than mentioned above.
Key to make strong army is building Holy temples asap and earning lots of gold to upgrade units, human has both.

You have to check this awesome human guide.

 

[unmerged(493757)]

I like monster the most, but i admit, human is the best race, probably the most powerful too. Imo that guide is rather biased toward quantity over quality strategy the human has, almost completely ignore human late game potential. No offense to the creator though, because most of the explanation in that guide is right.

 

[unmerged(500371)]

agree with endbringer. mages taking out fire elementals early is very important

 

[Skyhunteren]

I have to disagree with mages being an advantage. It isn't that they aren't able to take out fire elementals, it is just that monster can take down an elemental easy time with trolls and undead can take them with vampires. Heck get a kotl village and their spearmen can take it down with the right enchants/perks.

 

[unmerged(494828)]

Mass of temple units, gold-based perks, etc. look not too good for me.

1. Human dominance in gold is a myth. Pure gold city (without any resources, 1 farm, other buildings are gold) doesn't have any difference between humans and monsters (undead) till level 9. On level 10, that's 5.25 gold difference. City with 1 gold mine and the same conditions is equal till level 8 amd on level 10 that's 10.25 difference. Now consider the amount of gold required to support human units and you'll see they don't produce any more gold.

So by the time you could convert all your Rogues to Assassins, Monster enemy will have the same number of Old Trolls.

2. 50 Dauros and 50 Krolm means you have at least 4 temples (3 of which are for Helia) and starting divine perk. You already win before getting this.

3. Lots of rogues sounds fun, but they are fragile like glass. Trolls, Werewolves and Vampires survive much better for later upgrade.


The only point I should agree with is Mages vs. Fire elementals to clear holy grounds. This works, but requires some luck in your starting position to be used effectively.

 

[Talq]

Humans also get earlier and more research points when they go down that line (especially compared with undead).

undead can take them with vampires

Fire elementals are death immune.

 

[Skyhunteren]

Fire elementals are death immune.

Give them fire, silver, ice etc weapon or take perk to give elemental damage. Death immunity isn't hard to get around as a human player.

@Stealthnsk
Your quit right that in early game human don't have gold dominance, but for each lvl after 10 the difference just grow and grow and if you ever get som red dragon eggs.... Well then the difference is just insane. But it is only something that humans will get late game, which is why people say humans are strong late game and weak until that.

 

[unmerged(497726)]

I've never had any problems with playing humans. I just get my veteran Warriors up and running as soon as possible, hopefully coming out of a city that supplies them with multiple perks, and I seem to steamroll everything. I can't even tell you their relative power compared to similar units among Monsters and Undead, they just seem to be juggernauts early in the game. Any of the heavy hitting units I want later in the game will almost certainly be available from a captured city. If not, there's always Black Minotaurs.

The only drawback is the lack of ranged units. That's why I tend to go for Elven Villages if I spot one early. Otherwise, I'll use a captured town for ranged options ("Best archers in the wooooorrld!!") or just wait for temple units. My veterans can hold the line until then. And with the gold I'm bringing in, they are always well equipped.

I've heard that humans were underpowered, but I just don't see it. And the religious freedom a great thing.

 

[Bored Peon]

I have to agree the humans are on the weak side. People say the gold is nice, but it is not that much of an advantage. Excess food translate to gold, so a monster race can make a good amount as well. Undead do not need food so anything excess becomes gold. So once you apply the other races bonuses the extra gold isnt that much.

Although the upgraded veterans do make a decent versatile garrison unitdamage wise for your cities.

 

[unmerged(493174)]

Maybe it's just my strategy, but I usually end up running dry in gold and having massive quantities of spare food. Buying and perking up a mid-late game unit just costs so much gold up front, and spamming low level units just funnels my enemies xp.

 

[unmerged(493757)]

Mass of temple units, gold-based perks, etc. look not too good for me.

1. Human dominance in gold is a myth. Pure gold city (without any resources, 1 farm, other buildings are gold) doesn't have any difference between humans and monsters (undead) till level 9. On level 10, that's 5.25 gold difference. City with 1 gold mine and the same conditions is equal till level 8 amd on level 10 that's 10.25 difference. Now consider the amount of gold required to support human units and you'll see they don't produce any more gold.

So by the time you could convert all your Rogues to Assassins, Monster enemy will have the same number of Old Trolls.

2. 50 Dauros and 50 Krolm means you have at least 4 temples (3 of which are for Helia) and starting divine perk. You already win before getting this.

3. Lots of rogues sounds fun, but they are fragile like glass. Trolls, Werewolves and Vampires survive much better for later upgrade.

1. Human gold income has never been their best advantage. However the gold route of human city support the mass rogue then mass Cutthroats spam.

However, in late game the gap in gold income is high, and this is the time when you upgrade mass Cutthroats to mass assassins. The number of old troll vs the number of assassin will be comparable, and assassin is equal to old troll. So basically human is even with monster.

2. Yes if againts AI, i've said clearly above, this is in multiplayer scenario. Againts AI however, it doesn't matter which faction you use, which unit you use, current AI is far from competitive.

Against player, you will have 2 or 3 temple by the time you meet your opponent, even more than that. But most of the time you need only 50 Dauros reputation (for Spell lock).

Then Human will the drag the game to a battle of attrition which monster will lose.

However getting holy ground site or mystic portal near your location depends on luck, this is the only weakness of human. Human also depends on the map setting. Sometimes you don't get any holy site or mystic portal in your island or continent.

But you can just spam Cutthroats if you have bad luck. Then go the Lunord tree, or Lunord-Fervus hybrid. Though you can persist in using Dauros or Krolm or Dauros-Krolm, but you must spam Veterans.

Veterans is not that bad. This unit is underrated.

3. Look at their cost and maintenance, and compare the number of cities that can produce rogue in human case vs how many city can produce vampire and troll/werewolf in undead or monster case. All 3 race, need gold more than food or mana, we all agree that gold is the most important resource. Gold route means mass Cutthroats.

Perhaps i should not say Rogues, Rogues can be upgraded to Cutthroats, it is this unit that will become your main force. Cutthroats is the equivalent of Trolls, Noble Werewolf, Shamans, Vampire in term of combat capabilities, but Cutthroats cost less because tier wise it is on par with Seasoned Goblin Spearman or Goblin Sharpshooter (Cutthroats is much better and cheaper than those goblins though). By the time you get mass Cutthroats, human will be on the offensive, or agains AI, it is the time for human to steamroll the AI. By the time you get Lunord Temple, you get mass Assassins.

 

[unmerged(494828)]

Cutthroats don't look great for me. They do significant damage, but 33 HP without resistances makes them barely suitable as core unit. For me veterans are better, with some mages to do the damage. I also have a feeling what Veteran upgrades (Blademasters and Dauros Paladins) are more solid than Assassins, which are, as Cutthroats more support unit and don't stand any hard fight.