Humanist vs Religions

[DrLulz]

I always thought that the best idea in Humanism was the boost to better relations over time, which could greatly speed up conquest (As far as I can tell, BROT in EUIV is essentially the same as Infamy decay in EUIII, which was seen as a very attractive stat to boost), but people here seem to think that the best ideas in Humanism are the +tolereance or -RR one's.

Am I wrong about the attractiveness of the BROT idea, for a conquest-heavy game?

 

[anomalacaris]

I always thought that the best idea in Humanism was the boost to better relations over time, which could greatly speed up conquest (As far as I can tell, BROT in EUIV is essentially the same as Infamy decay in EUIII, which was seen as a very attractive stat to boost), but people here seem to think that the best ideas in Humanism are the +tolereance or -RR one's.

Am I wrong about the attractiveness of the BROT idea, for a conquest-heavy game?

Feel the same, but I guess most people are not conquering at max speed in all directions...

 

[Beagá]

The decreased cost for coring is a MUCH better bonus, but the rest of Administrative is a bit meh.

The really good bonus of Humanism is the increased amount of accepted cultures you have plus less unrest and nationalism. Getting an accepted culture can make your power increase a ton. And it has policies to help even more with that. Having more accepted cultures is so good that if I´d consider Humanism OP, it would be because of that.

Coalitions have been nerfed so much that they seldom become a nuisance, so BROT essentially becomes useless very fast. Even more so if you got any idea group that gives +1 diplomat. Just keep relations high with the most dangerous potential member of a coalition.

 

[pgroves]

Poland also likes the Religion idea group. With the right setup they are looking at a very low stability cost, giving them some great benefits.

Nihil Novi 10%
The Niezsawa Privelige 20%
Imperial Integrity 10%
Suffragan Bishop Act 8%
Declare Statute in Restraint of Appeals 10%
Church Attendance Duty 25%
=83%

There are a couple of policies to boost it further too.

I don't like to accept The Niezsawa Privelige as it gives +5% tech cost and also potentially more trouble later on

 

[Beagá]

The Statute in Restraint also makes almost impossible to have relevant Papal Influence. I´d also say Religious is a crap idea for Poland/CW.

Becoming part of the HRE relies on the player doing a lot of gamey stuff, so I barely count it as a real strategy.

 

[Novacat]

The Statute in Restraint also makes almost impossible to have relevant Papal Influence.

Well, it is pretty great if you plan on converting to something else later on.

 

[1alexey]

I always thought that the best idea in Humanism was the boost to better relations over time, which could greatly speed up conquest (As far as I can tell, BROT in EUIV is essentially the same as Infamy decay in EUIII, which was seen as a very attractive stat to boost), but people here seem to think that the best ideas in Humanism are the +tolereance or -RR one's.

Am I wrong about the attractiveness of the BROT idea, for a conquest-heavy game?

Usually Religious/Tolerance is picked to deal with religion in some way, so rebels don`t rebel all the time. Other bonuses are secondary.

 

[G_Morgan]

You still have to pick one before the other, and weight the opportunity cost of going into ADM ideas 2 or DIP sooner. Taking both when you only need one...or at least when the marginal utility of the 2nd can't match alternatives...slows you down.

In other words, I find it hard to picture opening religious --> humanist or humanist --> religious will consistently outperform opening with only one of the two, and not necessarily first. As a result, weighting between them is still a crucial step in maximizing your gains.

I'm going humanist first post 1.8 usually. In 1.7 the utility of humanist was very different. There you wanted the revolt risk reduction for the endless era of -2 stab as you truce break steam roll the work.

In 1.8 the revolt mechanic has obviously changed completely and the role of humanist with it. The early -2 unrest allows you to consistently hammer down local autonomy and keep everything ticking over. One of the big changes with the new patch is getting big doesn't make you that much more powerful until a century or so of peace time. So you need to reduce autonomy to get a strong core you can rely upon for the mid and late games.

There is one religion that is an exception to this IMO. Orthodox gets its built in revolt risk reduction on true faith provinces. This means religious wins outright. You get religious and get stupid degrees of stability from orthodox provinces (especially if you are Byzantium). I'd go as far to say that humanist is almost completely worthless on an orthodox nation but it is definitely true of Byzantium. Byzantium is king of all LA thumping to be honest. Stacking religious with their ideas means you can hammer down LA at will. Ok they don't get to switch to the more efficient governments for natural decay but that is irrelevant when you are stacking -8 unrest from Byzantine ideas, orthodox and religious. Convert and thump.

 

[Santoes]

Becoming part of the HRE relies on the player doing a lot of gamey stuff, so I barely count it as a real strategy.

So basically you are saying you are a cynical role player who holds a grudge against anyone who treats this like a strategy game?

 

[mrguymiah]

So basically you are saying you are a cynical role player who holds a grudge against anyone who treats this like a strategy game?

Don't start an argument, please. It's quite obvious that there are different types of players here on the forums and we're not going to convince each other to change our play styles. So just accept it and move on, please.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Feel the same, but I guess most people are not conquering at max speed in all directions...

If you feel the same, you are not conquering at max speed.

Fast conquest gets so much AE that even with double decay you'd have to wait decades to decay it.

 

[Novacat]

The decreased cost for coring is a MUCH better bonus, but the rest of Administrative is a bit meh.

1.8 has cut into the utility of coring cost enormously. Especially since diplomatic and influence idea groups not only help you digest territory quicker, but also fend off coalitions, get you elected/reelected in the HRE, and benefit more from vassals before you fully integrate them. Considering Administrative's utility was almost entirely buoyed by the coring cost, I would say that effectively cuts it out as an effective idea group.

Becoming part of the HRE relies on the player doing a lot of gamey stuff, so I barely count it as a real strategy.

Not really. You just have to get elected as emperor. Hardly gamey.

 

[grumphie]

1.8 has cut into the utility of coring cost enormously. Especially since diplomatic and influence idea groups not only help you digest territory quicker, but also fend off coalitions, get you elected/reelected in the HRE, and benefit more from vassals before you fully integrate them. Considering Administrative's utility was almost entirely buoyed by the coring cost, I would say that effectively cuts it out as an effective idea group.



Not really. You just have to get elected as emperor. Hardly gamey.

as always, it depends. administrative is great on nations like the ottomans, or nations that don't really have vassel feeding as an option. if you can't vaselise eastern nations that -coring cost can add up really big(also, the -% tech cost is always a great help if you're gonna take it for the -core cost). but as austria or something like that, it's obviosuly rather useless.

 

[Beagá]

1.8 has cut into the utility of coring cost enormously. Especially since diplomatic and influence idea groups not only help you digest territory quicker, but also fend off coalitions, get you elected/reelected in the HRE, and benefit more from vassals before you fully integrate them. Considering Administrative's utility was almost entirely buoyed by the coring cost, I would say that effectively cuts it out as an effective idea group.

Not really. You just have to get elected as emperor. Hardly gamey.

My problem is more with selling stuff and giving territory to join the empire, not being elected. Hell, isn´t it possible even as France to join the empire that way?

Administrative is great if you have tons of mercs to pay and it has an event that gives +1 Stability, so it isn´t that bad. And if the + Advisor means having a commandant you wouldn´t have otherwise in time for a difficult war, it´s also awesome.

As usual, choosing an idea group means using its strengths, and Adm still has some. If you don´t need mercs it loses a lot of value indeed. Still overall better than Expansion, heh.