For pagan faiths, I struggle unless I have both, it's the only time I tend to get both. You don't have any inherent +tolerance, but you can't convert anything either. On the plus side, deus vult is basically global for them though.
Humanism Why?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
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For pagan faiths, I struggle unless I have both, it's the only time I tend to get both. You don't have any inherent +tolerance, but you can't convert anything either. On the plus side, deus vult is basically global for them though.
Deus Vult is probably my third favorite CB (after Expansion's CB and Imperialism). And you can get it crazy early. If you're in a position to exploit Deus Vult, well, you're probably much better off going Religious than not. The CB is that good. And, unlike expansion, it doesn't matter what your tech group is. And, unlike Imperialism, you can get it shortly after hitting tech 4 (and dumping 400 admin points on your first idea, of course) as opposed to... tech 22?
Humanist isn't as good as Religious if you've already converted a province. But it's still very good -- Indirect Rule is -5 revolt risk from nationalism and Local Traditions is a flat -2 revolt risk. Cultural ties makes it a lot easier to remove the non-accepted culture malus (+2 revolt risk and some other stuff) but it's not very good if you've got a sprawling empire.
Humanist isn't as good as Religious if you've already converted a province. But it's still very good -- Indirect Rule is -5 revolt risk from nationalism and Local Traditions is a flat -2 revolt risk. Cultural ties makes it a lot easier to remove the non-accepted culture malus (+2 revolt risk and some other stuff) but it's not very good if you've got a sprawling empire.
Specific nations(France, Ottomans anything in India) or religions(reformed, catholic France) that stack their religious tolerance to +3 and never have to worry about conversion again. Japan is not among those, I'd rather take religious with them.
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thats why i take both humanist and religious ideas
you can just conquer all day long as long as you have scroll mana points
you can just conquer all day long as long as you have scroll mana points
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It actually reduce the problems that overextension create.
Add in the cheaper core cost from administrative and conquest will be very trivial.
B-b-but Shinto Deus Vult CB?!
Add cheaper core cost.... in your 5th idea group? ... In the current patch, this is the earliest you could have all three...
Who said it would be the 5th pick, could be the third with humanism as 5th.
Oh, well, I was thinking Humanist early since they are more useful early game... i.e. accept more cultures at 10% before you blob too much, keep them accepted as long as they are >5%... so, you can accept Russian and Cosmopolitaine for most of the game, if you desire.
And I was thinking Religious is useful early to make the most use of the CB before Imperialism.
Usually in Europe I take Humanist and fabricate claims before taking provinces for the extra -coring cost, while Religious is especially good if you're carving through, say, the steppes.
Edit: Because of the BT, of course.
The point of picking Humanist late would be to just increase the speed you can expand at, less nationalism and less unrest would be the main things here. However you may not have any points to spare at that stage of the game. Deus Vult CB is diplo free while imperialism is not which still makes it useful in late game as you could use saved diplo points for other stuff.
The wiki say that imperialism do have only 75% dip cost modifier which I think mean you still have to pay 25% of the diplo cost.
Then it is pretty useful espacially if you do the 1 pick religious start as you could just discard religious then you get imperialism for very little cost.
My problem is that even with Humanism, a wrong religion province is still worth less than an accepted religion province, so I'd rather just convert it every time. I do not accept even a single wrong religion province in my nation ever if I can convert it. So Humanism becomes useful for the accepted culture threshold and that it helps RR, so really only 2 of the ideas within Humanism are of any interest to me. Now if I am playing a nation that has accepted culture threshold in its national ideas I MIGHT stack Humanism in there too, then I'll be accepting people left, right and center. Otherwise I never take it.
If your every other idea group is Admin, you are going to be lagging in Admin tech, so you'd get your ideas later. AND you'd be spending your admin points in coring, which will again slow down the Idea group filling/teching. On the other hand, if you start to vassal feed instead of coring, it just makes your taking these idea groups pointless.
IMO humanism is only worth taking if you have heathen tolerance in your country's ideas.
Let's compare Humanist to Religious, one by one.
R: Deus Vult CB
Obviously, the CB is one of the best in the game, and often a must have while waiting for imperialism. Best for "lonely" religions like Orthodox or Shia, as most of your opponents will be a different faith.
H: 25% Religious Unity
The religious unity is quite nice, as you can avoid +stab cost and +unrest from disunity. Once you get rolling and have the religion you plan on keeping (post reformation at the latest usually) this becomes rather trivial, as you shouldn't have that much wrong religion land and you get this from other policies.
>I think this one goes to Religious. Unique ideas tend to win.
R: +1 Missionaries
A missionary, is quite wonderful. Double your conversion rate instantly. Once provinces get your religion, their unrest drops greatly.
H: -2 National Unrest
Getting -2 National Unrest is a great modifier, but it seems like a "band-aid" fix. You still are going to be converting the provinces to your religion (unless you humanist players leave you missionaries idle?) and -2 is not enough to avoid a revolt in a freshly conquered province of wrong religion and culture. Little utility here, if you ask me. Would help during westernizing, disasters, niche situations.
>Again, you can't get a Missionary anywhere else, save a few policies (which require religious...) and some triggered modifiers.
R: -25% Stab Cost
-25% stab cost is huge. When you stack it with national ideas and other modifiers, you can break the game. As Mamluks-Arabia, I was paying 2 to 8 adm points per stab boost under +1. This is an AMAZING relief from ADM burden over the course of a game (as a monarchy).
H: +3 Tolerance of Heretics
This is also huge. If your religion allows it, such as Confucianism or Buddhism, you can be on the path to ignoring any downsides of conquering wrong religion land. This can accelerate conquest greatly in that region of the world.
>This is a toss-up. The stab cost is great for monarchies all around the world, but some religions and NI's will see a greater benefit from the tolerance.
R: +3% Missionary Strength
This is one of the most powerful ideas anywhere in the game. You can now combine your extra missionary with this 3% boost to achieve and obscene conversion rate increase compared to those without religious. Best used with max Piety and Patriarch Authority to achieve trivial conversion times. If you snatch another missionary or more from Defender of the Faith and Triggered Modifiers, or your NI's, you reach the point where you don't care about wrong religion anymore either. Conquer, Convert, Core. Never see a revolt again. Less utility in the parts of the world that haven't gotten a DLC yet (east asia).
H: -10 Years of Nationalism
I don't get this one. I rarely see any revolts after the first one. The length of nationalism seems pretty trivial here. It can allow you to decrease autonomy and convert culture at an earlier time, but that doesn't mesh with humanist at all.
>Not really a contest here. Religious.
R: +1 Tolerance of the True Faith, +2 Yearly Papal Influence, +.25 Monthly Fervor
A must have for Catholics and Reformed, for obvious reasons. I rarely play Catholic and have NEVER played Reformed, so I'll leave that be. The Tolerance of the True Faith is great, and gives you even less revolt risk in provinces of your religion, which will be your religion even faster because of your previous ideas. Not the most powerful idea.
H: -50% Accepted Culture Threshold
Cool I guess. (So overrated) Anyway this helps you stay in one piece in the early game, but oops! Its 5 ideas into the tree, and by that time I assumed you've done quite a bit of conquering, especially outside of Western where it will take you a lot longer to tech up and reach this idea. The culture %'s will simply be too low to accept outside of ones like Lombard, which you probably could do for most of the game without this.
>The Religious one is only a must have for two religions, but the humanist idea seems quite trash tier unless you are Poland. Call it a draw.
R: +1 Yearly Prestige
Every tree has one like this. Its okay, and if you have collected some Romes and Meccas you can sit at 100 Prestige permanently, which is more valuable than ever in this patch.
H: +33% Better Relations Over Time
Coalitions are more abusable than ever, so I don't see why non-HRE players would fawn over this. Oh, its just HRE players.
>Giving it to Humanist here because that is a big bonus, but more because the religious one is weak.
R: +2 Missionary Strength vs Heretics
If you have a lot of Heretics to "deal" with, converting just keeps getting better. Helps Catholics survive the reformation, can be overkill to reformers who already get +8% from religious zeal. Can help east asians tear through the three blobs of religion going on over there. Vital for Shia/Ibadi. Can help Sunnis chew through the toughest conversion area in the game in Persia.
H: +3 Tolerance of Heathens
Cool if you already have some in your NI's or religion. Otherwise it won't really do much for you. At all.
>Since the argument is that Humanist is good for East Asians, I think conversion against heretics will do them even better. Convert high base tax china in a jiffy.
R: -25% Culture Conversion Cost
One of the least important aspects of the single player game, and more of a roleplaying game. But some people love it, and if you have a pile of DIP than its great to quickly and cheaply remove a smaller culture from your empire entirely and collect full tax from it. (your silly accepted culture threshold would have you leaving this there the whole game unaccepted)
H: -10% Idea Cost
I don't know what this is doing here, but it is quite nice. At the end of a tree no less. This solidifies Humanist as idea group that you must take first or not take at all. With better trees like Administrative, (and Religious) and situationally Expansion and Economic sitting there... I don't know how this makes it worth it. Probably good to combine with protestants-to-be.
>The Humanist idea here is better. I already explained why its not worth it, but in a 1 to 1 comparison it is better.
Humanist appears to be the poorer choice on average. It has some things that look great on paper, but you are not considering the opportunity cost. With new restrictions on idea groups, taking Humanist instead of Religious seems like an awful decision. And you pretty much have to take it first to get any utility out of it. Nations that get the best use out of it still seem better served to take Religious. For the few nations with NI's that can take advantage of some stacking (Poland... and Poland?), go ahead. There are actually so many more nations that can take advantage of stacking with Religious, the best being Byzantium (super overpowered mode) and Mamluks, Russians, Timurids, and any European start, Muslims, all of the New World, Africa, East Asia, Hordes...
Please argue my point substantively, I wish to learn more reasons why to take this group.
R: Deus Vult CB
Obviously, the CB is one of the best in the game, and often a must have while waiting for imperialism. Best for "lonely" religions like Orthodox or Shia, as most of your opponents will be a different faith.
H: 25% Religious Unity
The religious unity is quite nice, as you can avoid +stab cost and +unrest from disunity. Once you get rolling and have the religion you plan on keeping (post reformation at the latest usually) this becomes rather trivial, as you shouldn't have that much wrong religion land and you get this from other policies.
>I think this one goes to Religious. Unique ideas tend to win.
R: +1 Missionaries
A missionary, is quite wonderful. Double your conversion rate instantly. Once provinces get your religion, their unrest drops greatly.
H: -2 National Unrest
Getting -2 National Unrest is a great modifier, but it seems like a "band-aid" fix. You still are going to be converting the provinces to your religion (unless you humanist players leave you missionaries idle?) and -2 is not enough to avoid a revolt in a freshly conquered province of wrong religion and culture. Little utility here, if you ask me. Would help during westernizing, disasters, niche situations.
>Again, you can't get a Missionary anywhere else, save a few policies (which require religious...) and some triggered modifiers.
R: -25% Stab Cost
-25% stab cost is huge. When you stack it with national ideas and other modifiers, you can break the game. As Mamluks-Arabia, I was paying 2 to 8 adm points per stab boost under +1. This is an AMAZING relief from ADM burden over the course of a game (as a monarchy).
H: +3 Tolerance of Heretics
This is also huge. If your religion allows it, such as Confucianism or Buddhism, you can be on the path to ignoring any downsides of conquering wrong religion land. This can accelerate conquest greatly in that region of the world.
>This is a toss-up. The stab cost is great for monarchies all around the world, but some religions and NI's will see a greater benefit from the tolerance.
R: +3% Missionary Strength
This is one of the most powerful ideas anywhere in the game. You can now combine your extra missionary with this 3% boost to achieve and obscene conversion rate increase compared to those without religious. Best used with max Piety and Patriarch Authority to achieve trivial conversion times. If you snatch another missionary or more from Defender of the Faith and Triggered Modifiers, or your NI's, you reach the point where you don't care about wrong religion anymore either. Conquer, Convert, Core. Never see a revolt again. Less utility in the parts of the world that haven't gotten a DLC yet (east asia).
H: -10 Years of Nationalism
I don't get this one. I rarely see any revolts after the first one. The length of nationalism seems pretty trivial here. It can allow you to decrease autonomy and convert culture at an earlier time, but that doesn't mesh with humanist at all.
>Not really a contest here. Religious.
R: +1 Tolerance of the True Faith, +2 Yearly Papal Influence, +.25 Monthly Fervor
A must have for Catholics and Reformed, for obvious reasons. I rarely play Catholic and have NEVER played Reformed, so I'll leave that be. The Tolerance of the True Faith is great, and gives you even less revolt risk in provinces of your religion, which will be your religion even faster because of your previous ideas. Not the most powerful idea.
H: -50% Accepted Culture Threshold
Cool I guess. (So overrated) Anyway this helps you stay in one piece in the early game, but oops! Its 5 ideas into the tree, and by that time I assumed you've done quite a bit of conquering, especially outside of Western where it will take you a lot longer to tech up and reach this idea. The culture %'s will simply be too low to accept outside of ones like Lombard, which you probably could do for most of the game without this.
>The Religious one is only a must have for two religions, but the humanist idea seems quite trash tier unless you are Poland. Call it a draw.
R: +1 Yearly Prestige
Every tree has one like this. Its okay, and if you have collected some Romes and Meccas you can sit at 100 Prestige permanently, which is more valuable than ever in this patch.
H: +33% Better Relations Over Time
Coalitions are more abusable than ever, so I don't see why non-HRE players would fawn over this. Oh, its just HRE players.
>Giving it to Humanist here because that is a big bonus, but more because the religious one is weak.
R: +2 Missionary Strength vs Heretics
If you have a lot of Heretics to "deal" with, converting just keeps getting better. Helps Catholics survive the reformation, can be overkill to reformers who already get +8% from religious zeal. Can help east asians tear through the three blobs of religion going on over there. Vital for Shia/Ibadi. Can help Sunnis chew through the toughest conversion area in the game in Persia.
H: +3 Tolerance of Heathens
Cool if you already have some in your NI's or religion. Otherwise it won't really do much for you. At all.
>Since the argument is that Humanist is good for East Asians, I think conversion against heretics will do them even better. Convert high base tax china in a jiffy.
R: -25% Culture Conversion Cost
One of the least important aspects of the single player game, and more of a roleplaying game. But some people love it, and if you have a pile of DIP than its great to quickly and cheaply remove a smaller culture from your empire entirely and collect full tax from it. (your silly accepted culture threshold would have you leaving this there the whole game unaccepted)
H: -10% Idea Cost
I don't know what this is doing here, but it is quite nice. At the end of a tree no less. This solidifies Humanist as idea group that you must take first or not take at all. With better trees like Administrative, (and Religious) and situationally Expansion and Economic sitting there... I don't know how this makes it worth it. Probably good to combine with protestants-to-be.
>The Humanist idea here is better. I already explained why its not worth it, but in a 1 to 1 comparison it is better.
Humanist appears to be the poorer choice on average. It has some things that look great on paper, but you are not considering the opportunity cost. With new restrictions on idea groups, taking Humanist instead of Religious seems like an awful decision. And you pretty much have to take it first to get any utility out of it. Nations that get the best use out of it still seem better served to take Religious. For the few nations with NI's that can take advantage of some stacking (Poland... and Poland?), go ahead. There are actually so many more nations that can take advantage of stacking with Religious, the best being Byzantium (super overpowered mode) and Mamluks, Russians, Timurids, and any European start, Muslims, all of the New World, Africa, East Asia, Hordes...
Please argue my point substantively, I wish to learn more reasons why to take this group.
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How is unconverted provinces worth less with positive tolerance? The only difference is the unrest modifier depending on the amount of tolerance and Humanist already provides -2 while Religious only provinces -1 with converted provinces. The only serious issue with a multi-religous state is the unity threshold and Humanist comes with +25%. The entire point of Humanist IS conquest, so it only starts to look weak when you stop.
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