If you are going to westernize, the Admin idea group you should be getting is innovative.
Because after 1650, you'll get this event which will allow you to power level the 5-6 techs you are behind the western nations.
Humanism Why?
- Thread starter Zardnaar
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Because after 1650, you'll get this event which will allow you to power level the 5-6 techs you are behind the western nations.
You are listing Abrahamic faiths. If you are not, you can't keep up with a decent conquest pace with religious. It's impossible; your BT/time simply outstrips your conversion power, and while vassals are better than before, they're still unreliable for conversion too. Something like Hindu or Confucian just won't have the power to convert all of the provinces you can take (especially not Sunni). The worst by far, however, is pagan. Pagans get nothing from decisions to improve conversion strength, can't take defender of the faith, and only get 1 more missionary if they take Rome.
But humanist offers an alternative. If you can get tolerance to anything over 0 (not exactly 0 due to a bug), all such provinces give 25% unity. You get 50% at 1 and 75% at 2. Thus, if you have 2 tolerance you could own only wrong-religion provinces and still have 100% unity with humanist.
I would say humanist is strictly better than religious for most nations if it weren't for one thing: deus vult. It's available early, it gives a powerful war goal, and it gives tremendous dip cost reductions. Religious is otherwise inferior to humanist for empire stability, but it is for many nations "good enough" without burning 2 groups on ADM.
But humanist offers an alternative. If you can get tolerance to anything over 0 (not exactly 0 due to a bug), all such provinces give 25% unity. You get 50% at 1 and 75% at 2. Thus, if you have 2 tolerance you could own only wrong-religion provinces and still have 100% unity with humanist.
I would say humanist is strictly better than religious for most nations if it weren't for one thing: deus vult. It's available early, it gives a powerful war goal, and it gives tremendous dip cost reductions. Religious is otherwise inferior to humanist for empire stability, but it is for many nations "good enough" without burning 2 groups on ADM.
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If you're playing Hindu/Confucian, you are likely going to have very high religious unity to begin with because all the nearby lands are same religion. By the time you start expanding into other religion areas,the negative religious unity would be very small due to high BT from provinces of your own religion.
Also, if you're Hindu, tolerance of heretics is a waste of 400 admin
And the single biggest disadvantage of lack of religious unity/intolerance is rebels. If you're expanding fast or have a large empire, you can easily afford a merc stack to deal with this annoyance. Filling your an idea group (especially admin based) just for this is too much!
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Humanism is great especially when it synergise with the National Ideas of some Nations like Poland, France, Ottomans or the Indian Sultanates.
Unless you're role playing or have early access to future patches 
, Deus Vult is the single best idea out there. Only if I play a colonizer I could skip it as first admin idea favoring expansion, and even there with regret.
, Deus Vult is the single best idea out there. Only if I play a colonizer I could skip it as first admin idea favoring expansion, and even there with regret.- 1
Humanist is a really strong idea for colonizers or those who do a lot of cross-culture expansion. The BROT bonus is pretty awesome too. I tend to pick Religious still which may be a hold over from previous patches, and I almost always pick up Admin and Economic, so I never have room for Humanist as well. Imo the ideas are really well balanced against each other at the moment.
The big selling point of Humanism for me is: less annoyances. Less religious rebels, less nationalists, less coalitions, less every frustration-inducing things.
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- Dec 14, 1999
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Its THE no1 ideagroup picked those who wish to create large empires, where you fight the AI for the first 25-30 years.
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Same here. With Humanism, I never have to click thorugh annoying Rebel screen (which also burns MIL points pretty quickly).
One of my favorite ideas for sure.
I think its the worst ADM idea tree. Tolerance of the True Faith and religious conversion is simply superior. You're not going to accept any cultures if you have a half decent sized empire, so that goes in the trash.
Get Religious:
convert more provinces, faster to your religion.
get tolerance of the true faith to quickly get massive -provincial unrest, and you may never see a revolt. convert first, then core.
Orthodox with max PA meshes with this wonderfully.
And culture convert for cheaper when applicable.
I guess its just for Poland players, and I don't play those OP nations.
Get Religious:
convert more provinces, faster to your religion.
get tolerance of the true faith to quickly get massive -provincial unrest, and you may never see a revolt. convert first, then core.
Orthodox with max PA meshes with this wonderfully.
And culture convert for cheaper when applicable.
I guess its just for Poland players, and I don't play those OP nations.
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Says who?
I think I've taken it once since it was introduced... hated it. Still had to (wanted to) convert provinces, so it was thousands of papermana for one single idea. as stated before,the BROT idea.
Taking a good idea,ad moving it to a crappy idea set, wont make the set good. I now just make up for it with MORE milsets. Coalitions be darned. Annex those that wish to coalition you is a lot easier than waiting on AE to degrade. I have better ways to spend that adm.
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Well, if you convert all provinces anyway, then yes, it's not a very good ideaset. But why would you do that if you've taken humanism?
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I like my idea groups to provide benefit over medium and long term, considering the MP cost and the opportunity cost (taking slot of another possible idea group). Most of the humanist ideas directly affect rebels. If you have 1 army stack full of mercs, dealing with rebels is just an annoyance and nothing more. Wasting an idea group on that is not worth it. And besides, if people create large empires, dealing with rebels is not hard, it's just an annoyance that must be dealt with.
In my games, I barely get rebels after the first nationalists in provinces I take, only exceptions being events or where I manually reduce autonomy and get something 15 years later when WE is high or legitimacy is low.
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It's only something you even need to consider if you're non-abrahamic. Even then, I probably won't be taking it in any Hindu game anytime soon.
It does have its merits though. After all rebels are designed to be a threat yet add zero entertainment value, so taking it to remove them and let you focus on the real enemy at least makes the game more entertaining. Take it for what it provides though, don't take it as a choice of "religious or humanist". Most likely if I'm taking it I'm also taking religious.
If rebels were a threat than being an annoyance, there may actually be value to this idea group.
With Hindu you can get the following modifiers +1 advaita, +1 deity, +3 burning, +3 religious, +2 inquisitor, that is +10 added to base + stability. For wrong culture sunni you get -4. Still, a lot of strenght left IMO (9 = 18 tax). You can also release Hindu Najd etc. The only problem might be low number of missionaries (if you want to convert world).
Get Humanism:
- Take >80% OE worth of provinces with long coring times, still may never see a revolt.
- Annexed a vassal? Lower autonomy in half the provinces immediately. More if you don't plan on going to war.
- Can avoid Religious Turmoil disaster by taking 1st Humanist idea, DOTF and converting, if you aren't too big.
- Unholy stack with government type, e.g. Humanist Horde Oirat is a great vassal to feed., though probably overkill since nomad tech, + Constitutional govts.
Basically, what I see is:
Religious: Very good for Catholic and Orthodox. Have +TTF / + missionary strength.
Humanist: Very good for Protestant and Reformed. Protestants can also sit on >100% religious unity as long as you don't take too many heathen provinces, by enacting Declaration of Indulgence and not having low legitimacy. Bit wasted on Catholics since their negative tolerance of heretics makes getting +2 heretic tolerance hard.
I like it a lot with additional heathen tolerance ideas as it lets you ignore religion entirely. Plus if you don't blob or colonize too hard, the 50% reduced threshold for accepted cultures can get incredibly - even more so if you stack it with more of the same modifiers, since they stack additively
Um. It's amazing, picking Economic ideas over Humanist ideas is downright stupid in my eyes. Then again, I'm far from a fan of Economic ideas.
Because better, is always better.
that's 2 less revolt risk, even with humanism.
Then of course, there is the reduction to tax rate because "not same religion".