Huge bugs in 1914 scenario

[ptan54]

I was doing well as Germany, beating Russia to a pulp....then some rebels took Berlin whilst I was too busy at the front. According to this event

#########################################################################
# The Treaty of Versailles (Germany still at war with Russia)
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 28512
random = no
country = FRA

trigger = {
war = { country = FRA country = GER }
OR = {
desperation = { country = GER data = 30 } # 30% (was 3%) or more national provinces in foreign hands
war_exhaustion = { country = GER value = 7 }
flag = { name = flg_KaiserFalls value = 1 }
NOT = {
control = { province = 342 data = GER } #Berlin fell
}
}
NOT = {
OR = {
event = 28519
event = 28569
}
}
}

name = "EVT_28512_NAME"
desc = "EVT_28512_DESC"
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = august year = 1915 }
offset = 10
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1925 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME28512A" # Let us redraw the map of Europe!
command = { type = trigger which = 28513 } # GER
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME28512B" # We shall fight on to total victory
command = { type = pop_militancy which = soldiers value = 3 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = farmers value = 3 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = labourers value = 3 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = craftsmen value = 3 }
command = { type = prestige value = -10 }
}
}

Only ONE of these events - Berlin not in GER hands, War Exhaustion 7%, 30% natl provs in enemy hands, or Kaiser falls flag = 1.....then this will fire! I strongly suspect the OR = { } should be AND = {}. Kaiser falls, AND Berlin falls, AND 30% natl provs in enemy hands. It's silly to see my armies doing so well and because of one rebel pop I lose the war or have +3 militancy everywhere!

Also, I had beaten Britain, France and Russia - and then Austria surrenders! For no reason! I suspect this event fired before Britain made peace with me -

#########################################################################
# Austria Surrenders (Russia Still in the war)
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 28515
random = no
country = AUS

trigger = {
OR = {
war = { country = AUS country = RUS } #Russia still in war
war = { country = AUS country = ENG }
}
atwar = yes
OR = {
desperation = { country = AUS data = 25 } # 20% (was 3% or more national provinces in foreign hands
war_exhaustion = { country = AUS value = 5 }
flag = { name = flg_German_Loss value = 1 } #German surrenders
NOT = {
control = { province = 752 data = AUS } #Vienna fell
}
}
NOT = {
OR = {
event = 28519
event = 28569
}
}
}


name = "EVT_28514_NAME"
desc = "EVT_28514_DESC"
style = 0

date = { day = 1 month = august year = 1915 }
offset = 10
deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1925 }

action_a = {
name = "ACTIONNAME28512A" # Let us redraw the map of Europe!
command = { type = peace which = ENG value = 1 }
command = { type = peace which = USA value = 1 }
command = { type = end_satellite_mastery which = SER }
command = { type = end_satellite_mastery which = ROM }
command = { type = prestige value = -1450 }
command = { type = leave_alliance }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_Austria_Loss value = 1 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = 100 value = -3 }
#Galicia & Krakow to Russia
#command = { type = trigger Which = 28547 }
#Trento and Istria to Italy
#command = { type = trigger Which = 28545 }
#Transilvania to Romania
#command = { type = trigger Which = 28546 }
#
#command = { type = independence which = U20 } #Czechoslovakia event 28608
#command = { type = independence which = MON } #Montenegro restored event 28606
#command = { type = independence which = SER } #Restore Any Serb Lands event 28605
#command = { type = secedestate which = SER value = 910 } #event 28607
#command = { type = secedestate which = SER value = 913 }
#command = { type = secedestate which = SER value = 907 }
#command = { type = secedestate which = SER value = 909 }
#command = { type = secedestate which = SER value = 907 }
#command = { type = secedestate which = SER value = 906 }
#command = { type = secedestate which = SER value = 756 }
#command = { type = secedeprovince which = SER value = 754 }
}
action_b = {
name = "ACTIONNAME28512B" # We shall fight on to total victory
command = { type = prestige value = -10 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = soldiers value = 3 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = farmers value = 3 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = labourers value = 3 }
command = { type = pop_militancy which = craftsmen value = 3 }
command = { type = setflag which = flg_AUSFightsOn value = 1 }
}
}

Austria is at war with Britain. War exhaustion is 5% or more and so on...again, the OR = { } should probably be AND = { }

 

[ptan54]

To illustrate the absurdity that currently exists see -

Gibraltar is mine, so is Malta. The British "defeat" events certainly fired. I've annexed much of France (my own treaty) and Russia (Brest Litovsk event). Yet Austria still collapses? I was on my way helping them crush Italy - I had just finished puppeting Romania via event and all my Balkan armies are left in the middle of nowhere?

And Germany seems to get HUGE rebel problems even before the +3 militancy increase I took from that absurd "Surrender to France" event by having a rebel pop take Berlin. AFAIK the German Army spent most of its time fighting on the frontlines, not suppressing violent revolts at home.

 

[jdrou]

Those war exhaustion trigger levels seem awfully low. (That's presumably the one that made Austria surrender.) If it was ANDed with another trigger it might make sense but they shouldn't surrender at 5 or 7% when they are otherwise doing well.

 

[OHgamer]

Trying to script events for as complex as the many what-if situations that exist in a war situation as WWI meant trying to keep enough flexibility to ensure that the end goal when these nations are AI controlled, the world of 1919 after Versailles, could be achieved. War_exhautions = 5 means that the event will trigger for AUS at 50% WE. Higher war exhaustion levels for AUS created many problems in that regard, and the result was that after a great deal of testing it was found 50% WE was the right level for AUS to collapse in '18. 70% WE usually kept AUS in the war well into the early 1920s, resulting in some very problematic postwar results once AUS did finally collapse. It is defintiely NOT triggering at 5%, as that is reached by AUS by early '15 at the latest, as it bangs its head into the Serbs.

As for Germany, by summer 1918 you had social pressures from the war leading to a collapse of the home front. once the navy mutinies, there are uprisings in many German cities calling for the kaiser out and the war to end. And that is exactly what happened. Continuing on with the war in spite of popular mood against the war would have led to a collapse of civil authority in Germany. Note that human players have the opportunity to continue the war, but the consequences of what that would have meant I think are very plausible, and clearly indicate to the human player that they better get some troops back into the homeland to contain the growing dissent.

In the end it is probably impossible to write event triggers that will cover every conceivable situation a player will create, and so the event triggers have to be written with the view of what the historic result should be, with options for players to reject the historic option. And for the most part, the events do get the historic result, with the human players having plenty of options to evade them. Where there does seem to be an issue is that ITA should have made peace with GER and AUS if ENG surrrendered - there are events included. If the ITA AI then chose the ahistorical path and chose to fight to the end, then war would continue, but the events are designed for AI A choice to surrender if ENG is knocked out.

 

[ptan54]

So I take it then you don't see it as a faulty bug. Germany is winning on all fronts - one rebel pop takes Berlin, and the French get to impose peace terms? That's plain absurd. A victorious Hohenzollern Germany would never allow Austria to collapse. War exhaustion alone should not knock anyone out of the war - the winter of 1916 was particularly bad with people starving to death or subsisting on turnips. So long as the military situation was going well, morale would not be affected adversely by war exhaustion per se. 1918 saw the Central Powers retreat on all fronts - no wonder that the Empires collapsed. Yet I was winning on all fronts in my game.

Also, the checking for capital province control trigger is rather arbitrary. One rebel pop can just take the capital whilst you're doing well and you're compelled to seek peace. I had to keep 20 divisions in the home front as Germany to put down rebels. Not even Tsarist Russia had a 200,000 man army at home to crush rebels in this period.

 

[OHgamer]

So I take it then you don't see it as a faulty bug. Germany is winning on all fronts - one rebel pop takes Berlin, and the French get to impose peace terms? That's plain absurd. A victorious Hohenzollern Germany would never allow Austria to collapse. War exhaustion alone should not knock anyone out of the war - the winter of 1916 was particularly bad with people starving to death or subsisting on turnips. So long as the military situation was going well, morale would not be affected adversely by war exhaustion per se. 1918 saw the Central Powers retreat on all fronts - no wonder that the Empires collapsed. Yet I was winning on all fronts in my game.

Also, the checking for capital province control trigger is rather arbitrary. One rebel pop can just take the capital whilst you're doing well and you're compelled to seek peace. I had to keep 20 divisions in the home front as Germany to put down rebels. Not even Tsarist Russia had a 200,000 man army at home to crush rebels in this period.

Well that is pretty much what happened in '18 - no Allied troops on German soil at all, yet the Hohenzollerns fell like a house of cards in wake of the uprisings at Kiel and their spread to Berlin. Note the city had not even fallen into rebel hands, and the Kaiser fell.

And the human player has the option to continue the war - they can choose the b choice. But as in the case of the public mood in Germany 1918, a continuation of the war would likely have led to even more uprisings among the German public. but if the player feels confident of victory, then there should be no problem sending in part of the army to quell the rabble - as elements around the Kaiser wanted him to do in the fall of 1918.

The symbolic value of the capital of Germany falling into the hands of the rabble - and keep in mind it would take at least 15-20 days for this to happen with only one rebel unit, giving the player time to ship troops to Berlin to drive the rabble out before the event for the armistice would fire - would have been immense and gravely shaken the loyalty of a large segment of the soldiers and general public towards continuing the war. To me it makes complete sense that one of the triggers for the armistice is that the capital has been seized - either by a foreign army or by anti-government rebels hoping to get Germany out of the war. If Germany can not keep its capital under control, what does that say in the end about its abilities to control society at large.

 

[ptan54]

That's silly, victory parades in Paris, London, St Petersburg, Moscow, one rebel pop goes haywire and you get TREATY OF VERSAILLES?????? In real life, huge military victories have the (temporary) effect of reducing War Exhaustion. But the game engine doesn't handle this at all. Even if you're winning your WE will rise and rise. Surely this isn't an accurate reflection of how things should be.

Germany in 1918 LOST bigtime from August onwards. Their armies were getting whipped in France. No foreign troops needed to be on German soil - the German govt asked for peace.

Yet I was marching to the Atlantic Ocean and whipping all the Allied armies bigtime. Bear in mind it is annoying as a player to deal with revolts every 2 seconds and it is easy to fail to notice rebels popping up when you're fighting climatic battles in Moscow and Paris.

It seems like nobody recognises that a problem exists, let alone alter these events. Very well then, I may as well be talking to a brick wall, I'll go back to HOI2 when it comes to 1914 scenarios, at least I won't have to deal with one rebel pop taking one province and triggering off defeat events when my armies have taken over the British Isles, France and European Russia.

 

[OHgamer]

Well in the end since having 50 different versions of Versailles to trigger based on every potential situation that could arise is simply not feasible, the easiest solution is to simply allow individuals to mod the base event if they feel it is too restrictive. As I noted, the event was developed based on finding the average result after a great deal of testing with the view of promoting a historical result to set up the '14 scenario for the post-Versailles era. That you as a player have achieved what the Germans themselves could not do historically places your experience way outside the range of likely results, so the best solution is to mod the event to meet your capabilities and preferences.

We do the best we can to find a middle ground to suit all player capabilities, but the beauty of Paradox games is that they indeed can be heavily modded to fit the capabilities of players.

 

[ptan54]

OK, fair enough....I do however note one inconsistency in the Entente defeat code. Britain or Russia (28524 and 28523 respectively) can lose if either

won_war = { country = GER country = FRA }
flag = { name = flg_France_Loss value = 1 }

Playing as Germany I never took Lyon (one of the cities needed to fire the French defeat event) but I took all of northern France. They sued for peace and I got a nice chunk of provinces. But then the French losses event didn't fire. This is because, unlike the Britain and Russia defeat events, the trigger for 28618 is simply:

trigger = {
flag = { name = flg_France_Loss value = 1 }
atwar = no
}

Surely the fact that I beat them so badly that they ceded most of northern France to me counts as a victory? I suggest the trigger be amended to:

trigger = {
OR = {
won_war = { country = GER country = FRA }
flag = { name = flg_France_Loss value = 1 }
}
atwar = no
}

Or, even better, have an event that checks for won_war = { country = GER country = FRA }. That event then sets the flag flg_France_Loss value = 1.

 

[OHgamer]

now that does seem very much like something to add - though you were rather lucky France peaced out given its AI settings are designed to have FRA fight in most cases until the Germans reach Marseilles and Toulouse.

Will test it and see how it reacts if or when it does that.

 

[OHgamer]

Actually the better solution I think would be to tweak 28649 so that it can also fire if FRA makes peace before the event to have France accept defeat fires.

#########################################################################
#  FRA Fights On And Loses 
#########################################################################
event = {
	id = 28649
	random = no
	country = FRA

	trigger = {
		OR = {
			AND = {
				flag = { name = flg_FRAFightsOn value = 1 }
				won_war = { country = GER country = FRA }
				}
			AND = {
				won_war = { country = GER country = FRA }
				NOT = {
					flag = { name = flg_France_Loss value = 1 } #France not surrender via event
					}
				}
			}	
		}

	name = "EVT_28660_NAME"
	desc = "EVT_28660_DESC"
	picture = 28505

	date = { day = 1 month = february year = 1915 }
	offset = 5
	deathdate = { day = 30 month = december year = 1925 }

	action_a = {
		name = "ACTIONNAME28567A"
		command = { type = setflag which = flg_France_Loss value = 1 }
	}
}

That way the France_Loss flag gets set, GER gets the lands and the events to get ENG and RUS to choose to throw in the towel are established.

 

[ptan54]

Well here is the peace treaty they offered me -

Prestige +80, so it was quite a bad situation for them.

Also, I noted this after "France loses lands to GER"

Surely that isn't WAD? I've checked the code for 28618 and it seems Fez has been missed out....although both Tafilelt and Draa are part of the Morocco State. I have the save game file of the situation immediately prior to the firing of the peace treaty if you wish to test it.

And oh, isn't this rather odd?

#########################################################################
# Serbia Knocked Out of The War
#########################################################################
event = {
id = 28668
random = no
country = SER

trigger = {
atwar = yes
OR = {
war_exhaustion = { country = SER value = 7 }
desperation = { country = SER data = 70 } # 50% or more national provinces in enemy hands
AND = {
flag = { name = flg_France_Loss value = 1 }
war_exhaustion = { country = ROM value = 5 }
desperation = { country = ROM data = 50 } # 50% or more national provinces in enemy hands
}
AND = {
flag = { name = flg_Brest_Litovsk value = 1 }
war_exhaustion = { country = ROM value = 5 }
desperation = { country = ROM data = 50 } # 50% or more national provinces in enemy hands
}
}
NOT = {
flag = { name = flg_Austria_Loss value = 1 }
}
}

Why should Serbia's defeat be contingent on............Romania? Looking at the trigger, the flag France_Loss value = 1 again features. I strongly suggest therefore that an extra event be scripted to set this flag should France make peace with a victorious Germany. [EDIT - I see you've done that above]

 

[OHgamer]

Why should Serbia's defeat be contingent on............Romania? Looking at the trigger, the flag France_Loss value = 1 again features. I strongly suggest therefore that an extra event be scripted to set this flag should France make peace with a victorious Germany. [EDIT - I see you've done that above]

On the Serbia, have already caught that and will be included in the next patch.

Will check on the Morocco issue. Does look odd.