Hudson Bay: A New Trade Company Region

Hudson Bay: A New Trade Company Region

  • Crusader Kings III Available Now!

    The realm rejoices as Paradox Interactive announces the launch of Crusader Kings III, the latest entry in the publisher’s grand strategy role-playing game franchise. Advisors may now jockey for positions of influence and adversaries should save their schemes for another day, because on this day Crusader Kings III can be purchased on Steam, the Paradox Store, and other major online retailers.


    Real Strategy Requires Cunning

Sanguine Caesar

Legatus Missus
37 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
388
17
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
Introduction

Hello there! As a Canadian, I have always wished for a more interesting experience in what historically comprised British North America in EUIV. There is plenty of interesting history which could potentially be explored, particularly with regard to competition between the British and French over control of the lucrative fur trade with indigenous populations, something which would go on to shape and define the very politics and culture of the region for generations to come. I would like to eventually put together a more comprehensive suggestion for the region in the future, but for right now I'd like to focus on one aspect in particular: the Hudson Bay Company (HBC).

Historical Context

320px-Hudsons_Bay_Company_Flag.svg.png

(flag of the Hudson's Bay Company, in use from 1801 to Present)

According to the Canadian Encyclopedia, "The Hudson’s Bay Company (HBC), chartered 2 May 1670, is the oldest incorporated joint-stock merchandising company in the English-speaking world. HBC was a fur trading business for most of its history, a past that is entwined with the colonization of British North America and the development of Canada."

After reading through a few sources, and also using what I had learned in school, I have complied the following notes on the historical role of the HBC in regional affairs; from its founding in 1670, to its merger with the rival North West Company by royal decree in 1821.

Overview
c7340573e40d53b153b2322f293fe260.jpg

(Map of HBC trading posts in North America and Hawaii. Each red dot represents a trading post)
  • The Hudson Bay Company (HBC) was incorporated May 2nd 1670 in London
  • The HBC established 501 fur trading posts across Canada during colonial times
  • It was a major player in the search for the Northwest Passage
  • The Company, with its monopoly over the fur trade in British North America, would go on to have tremendous influence over Canadian politics, trade, and commerce for many decades since its founding
Origins
e205bf43-b721-4b81-8dfc-84b31d99794a.jpg

(HBC ships trading with the Inuit)
  • Médard Chouart des Groseilliers and Pierre-Esprit Radisson had originally proposed the idea of a trade company charter in the region to the French monarchy in the mid-17th century
  • After failing to obtain the support of their own government, the two French merchants approached the British in 1665, gaining the support of Prince Rupert, cousin of King Charles II
  • The land of the Hudson Bay drainage basin was chartered in 1670 by the British Crown to Prince Rupert’s company, who had been dispatched in 1668 and would later become the Hudson Bay Company
  • The HBC held exclusive trading rights over this area, known then as Rupert’s Land
  • Before the British conquest of New France, many HBC trading posts had been captured by the French in 1686, who were then forced to return them under the Treaty of Utrecht in 1713
Competition and Clashes with the NWC
selkirksettlement27.jpg

(The Battle of Seven Oaks, 1816)
  • The HBC and its bitter rival, the North West Company (NWC), engaged in armed clashes over the fur trade in Rupert’s Land until being unified via royal decree in 1821
  • One such clash was the infamous 1816 Seven Oaks Massacre in which 60 Métis mercenaries led by an NWC employee plundered HBC settlements along the Assiniboine River, eventually clashing with HBC soldiers which resulted in 21 dead
  • The Seven Oaks Massacre led to the forced eviction of the HBC’s Red River Colony under threat of massacre by the NWC and Métis mercenaries
Trade and Relations with Indigenous Peoples
3de41ff0-80b9-44c7-b85a-1bb3d3054580.jpg

(HBC Made Beaver coin)
  • The HBC issued its own currency, the Made Beaver Coin, for use in trading with natives. The currency was based on the standard of one prime male beaver pelt
  • Barter was otherwise used by the HBC to obtain furs from indigenous peoples, who would trade pelts in exchange for metal tools, firearms, textiles and foodstuffs

My Proposal

Now to the actual proposal itself. I might expand on it a bit in the future, but for now, this is what I have come up with.

Simply put, the Hudson Bay Trade Node should NOT be included in Colonial Canada, but rather should be made into a Trade Company Region instead. This is based on the historical context I've elaborated on above, and would make for a more realistic portrayal of the region, as the way in which the HBC functioned was not unlike similar companies in the East Indies or British India, being more similar to them than much of the New World Colonies. This would cause a lot of land to be lost from the Colonial Region of Canada, but I feel it would be justified by its improved accuracy.

I would also suggest that changes to provinces in the region be looked into, as many regions depicted as wastelands in the game actually had several trading posts within them, which would be nice to have illustrated in the game. I wouldn't want European levels of detail, just a bit of a facelift for this region is all. I will see if I can create an edited map with new provinces in the future based on trading posts. Some events too, such as the Seven Oaks Massacre and the minting of the Made Beaver Coin as described above could also work in EUIV. I will see about elaborating on them a bit further later on.

As my knowledge of First Nations bands' territorial claims is rudimentary at best, I have chosen not to tackle them in this thread out of respect as I would much rather have someone with a more detailed knowledge than me take on the role of representing these peoples and their respective societies.

Conclusion

Thanks for taking the time to read my thread! Hopefully I have been able to provide some useful information, and perhaps a future New World/Colonialism update could incorporate some of the ideas I have presented here. All opinions and further discussion are most certainly welcome. Have a nice day! :)
 

This thread is more than 5 months old.

It is very likely that it does not need any further discussion and thus bumping it serves no purpose. If you feel it is necessary to make a new reply, you can still do so though.

ValhallArchitect

Duc
38 Badges
Aug 16, 2015
225
37
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Sengoku
I have been supporting this all along. And redrawn colonial borders for Canada, Louisiana and Eastern sea board, actually following historical barriers and frontiers such as Appalaches and Great Lakes.
I am not going to develop this any more, since I have already made this request dozens of times in other posts, but check my mod Typus Orbis Terrarum (reloaded) to get an idea of the proposed colonial borders
 

Sanguine Caesar

Legatus Missus
37 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
388
17
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
I have been supporting this all along. And redrawn colonial borders for Canada, Louisiana and Eastern sea board, actually following historical barriers and frontiers such as Appalaches and Great Lakes.
I am not going to develop this any more, since I have already made this request dozens of times in other posts, but check my mod Typus Orbis Terrarum (reloaded) to get an idea of the proposed colonial borders
Agreed. Colonial regions in North America are largely based on modern international borders. To someone who does not know much about European settlement, or to someone who is not native to the region and did not grow up knowing its history, this may seem like a logical decision. However, for the majority of the game's time period the region looked very different from how it does today: Newfoundland had little to do with the rest of Canada (which at the time only referred to Quebec and Ontario), religious conflicts between the British and francophone Acadians in modern-day New Brunswick and Nova Scotia were rampant as Catholics were being forced to swear fealty to a Protestant king, and the ENTIRE drainage basin of the Great Lakes (not just modern-day southern Ontario) was an integral part of first New France and later the Province of Quebec, until being lost in the American revolution. I would totally be in favour of redrawing colonial regions, so that I don't have to see New France being divided at the 49th parallell into French Canada and the totally fictional Floride again.
 

ValhallArchitect

Duc
38 Badges
Aug 16, 2015
225
37
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Sengoku
Exactly. Theses regions (entire mississsipi drainage basin and entire st Lawrence basin) correspond much more closely to the borders up until 1776/83, not only 1763. Even during the decade of British rule they were still administered separately from the eastern coast colonies.

I find that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia being separate colonies, although it makes sense historically, would be too much of an unbalance.
They were really small areas compared to neighboring colonies, and the Tordesillas mechanic would also give a divine claim only to a really small region compared to the whole mississipi and st Lawrence drainage.

Unless, of course, Paradox once decides to give to the player/AI the choice to administrate their colonies the way they want it : a centralized New France, or thirteen different British charters.
A colonial viceroyalty, or trade company charters (Hudson Bay).

Although to be honest I have abandoned any hope of seeing the devs doing this any soon; which is why I have developed this into my own mod. At least in the current modding abilities, which mean we can’t do anything to the mechanic itself, but only to the borders
 

ValhallArchitect

Duc
38 Badges
Aug 16, 2015
225
37
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Sengoku
Did you find some useful maps along your researches ?
I would be very interested to carve out new provinces for the northwestern territories of the USA and Canada; as provinces tend to become quite... big, to say the least.
I believe HBC trade posts could provide a nice base for new provinces
 

Sanguine Caesar

Legatus Missus
37 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
388
17
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
Did you find some useful maps along your researches ?
I would be very interested to carve out new provinces for the northwestern territories of the USA and Canada; as provinces tend to become quite... big, to say the least.
I believe HBC trade posts could provide a nice base for new provinces
I have in fact found a couple maps.

This one here is from the provincial archives of Manitoba. It includes every single one of the over 500 fur trading posts established by the HBC over its history. The site provides a single map for all of Canada, as well as more detailed maps of each individual province and territory. This should prove useful for drawing some new provinces in the region.

Furthermore, I also have some maps of Rupert's Land (the territory which would come to be granted to the HBC by the British Crown) as well as the surrounding areas during the colonial period.
1713.gif

(Map of Rupert's Land 1710)
8988076_orig.png
7
(Map of British North America c.1800)
Hudson_Bay_Exploration_Western_Interior_map_de.png

(Map of the explorations of Henry Kelsey, Alexander Henday, and Samuel Hearne)
virtual-museum-the-growth-of-the-fur-trade.jpeg

(Map of HBC and NWC trading posts in British North America)
Hopefully these should prove useful with regard to determining the placement of new provinces in the region :)
 

ValhallArchitect

Duc
38 Badges
Aug 16, 2015
225
37
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Sengoku
I have in fact found a couple maps.

This one here is from the provincial archives of Manitoba. It includes every single one of the over 500 fur trading posts established by the HBC over its history. The site provides a single map for all of Canada, as well as more detailed maps of each individual province and territory. This should prove useful for drawing some new provinces in the region.

Furthermore, I also have some maps of Rupert's Land (the territory which would come to be granted to the HBC by the British Crown) as well as the surrounding areas during the colonial period.
1713.gif

(Map of Rupert's Land 1710)
8988076_orig.png
7
(Map of British North America c.1800)
Hudson_Bay_Exploration_Western_Interior_map_de.png

(Map of the explorations of Henry Kelsey, Alexander Henday, and Samuel Hearne)
virtual-museum-the-growth-of-the-fur-trade.jpeg

(Map of HBC and NWC trading posts in British North America)
Hopefully these should prove useful with regard to determining the placement of new provinces in the region :)
Thanks a lot
 

Sanguine Caesar

Legatus Missus
37 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
388
17
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
@ValhallArchitect you mentioned Newfoundland and Nova Scotia being too small to be made into separate regions? Well what would you say about grouping all the Maritimes (plus Greenland just for the sake of having more provinces) into their own colonial region? Despite this area's low population I still believe a few new provinces could be carved out (particularly in Newfoundland which has massive provinces) which would make such a proposition a bit more feasible. So in this new colonial region would be included the states of Newfoundland, Labrador, Upper Acadia, Lower Acadia, and Greenland, with more provinces added to each. Colonial nations in this region would go something like Newfoundland for England/Britain, Acadia for France, Nova Scotia for Scotland, Greenland for Denmark, Vinland for Norway, etc.

All this is just an idea at this point and I haven't really developed it, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on such a proposal.
 

ValhallArchitect

Duc
38 Badges
Aug 16, 2015
225
37
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Sengoku
@ValhallArchitect you mentioned Newfoundland and Nova Scotia being too small to be made into separate regions? Well what would you say about grouping all the Maritimes (plus Greenland just for the sake of having more provinces) into their own colonial region? Despite this area's low population I still believe a few new provinces could be carved out (particularly in Newfoundland which has massive provinces) which would make such a proposition a bit more feasible. So in this new colonial region would be included the states of Newfoundland, Labrador, Upper Acadia, Lower Acadia, and Greenland, with more provinces added to each. Colonial nations in this region would go something like Newfoundland for England/Britain, Acadia for France, Nova Scotia for Scotland, Greenland for Denmark, Vinland for Norway, etc.

All this is just an idea at this point and I haven't really developed it, but I'm interested to hear your thoughts on such a proposal.
I would generally advice against.
Although I do agree that there was a separate culture and administration, I believe it was more due to the fact that it was a border colony frequently subject to foreign attempts of conquest.
Since it corresponds to the same geographical region as the St Lawrence, I see no reason to split it, as it would take much trade power away from the Canada proper colony.

However, what I would totally be supporting would be a rework of the colonial regions based on areas and regions to allow for smaller colonies to form (2-3 provinces) while bigger ones (union-tag) would be formed by decision of the overlord.
One thing that has always bothered me is that it as England you colonize Boston and Florida only, despite being hundred of miles away, they would form as a single entity.
I believe, in the contrary, that we should have the ability to form them as separate colonies (which they were) and then merge them under a viceroyalty (of the Thirteen Colonies iN this case).

Another argument to support this choice is the fact that most of the future independent colonies were formed as federal states, based on the multiplicity of their constituants.
Besides, taking the example of the American War of Independence; it is to be noted that some colonies remained (largely) loyal to the crown, while others went (largely) patriots; showing, unlike the game currently represents, a non unitary revolutionary movement

Same logic would go for Newfoundland/Acadia and Canada, which could also be administered separately until they become contiguous, in which case they would be unionized as New France.

This, however, requires a rework from the developers, as it is currently not possible to achieve with the current mechanics
 

Sanguine Caesar

Legatus Missus
37 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
388
17
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
I would generally advice against.
Although I do agree that there was a separate culture and administration, I believe it was more due to the fact that it was a border colony frequently subject to foreign attempts of conquest.
Since it corresponds to the same geographical region as the St Lawrence, I see no reason to split it, as it would take much trade power away from the Canada proper colony.

However, what I would totally be supporting would be a rework of the colonial regions based on areas and regions to allow for smaller colonies to form (2-3 provinces) while bigger ones (union-tag) would be formed by decision of the overlord.
One thing that has always bothered me is that it as England you colonize Boston and Florida only, despite being hundred of miles away, they would form as a single entity.
I believe, in the contrary, that we should have the ability to form them as separate colonies (which they were) and then merge them under a viceroyalty (of the Thirteen Colonies iN this case).

Another argument to support this choice is the fact that most of the future independent colonies were formed as federal states, based on the multiplicity of their constituants.
Besides, taking the example of the American War of Independence; it is to be noted that some colonies remained (largely) loyal to the crown, while others went (largely) patriots; showing, unlike the game currently represents, a non unitary revolutionary movement

Same logic would go for Newfoundland/Acadia and Canada, which could also be administered separately until they become contiguous, in which case they would be unionized as New France.

This, however, requires a rework from the developers, as it is currently not possible to achieve with the current mechanics
Fair enough, I can understand that. The idea was just sort of half-baked anyway though I figured I might as well pose it as a question. I appreciate the feedback :)

It would certainly be interesting to have a revise colonisation system like the one you propose here, though I don't know what the likelihood is of it being included nor do I know how such a system would be implemented. I guess we'll just have to wait and see what the Devs do with colonisation moving forward.
 

ValhallArchitect

Duc
38 Badges
Aug 16, 2015
225
37
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Sengoku
A bit farther to the south, I would also suggest splitting Maranhão from Brazil.

As for Canada and Hudson Bay, the current colonial regions corresponds to the modern state borders of Brazil.

However, there are historical arguments for the split :
- The treaty of Tordesillas granted a territory much smaller than the modern boundary of Brazil to Portugal. The state of Maranhão, which also ruled over the amazon basin, was almost entirely out of the region granted under that treaty
Besides, the granted territory was also slowly overextended to the Southwest across the Rio de La Plata river basin. Uruguay and Upper Peru notably were disputed regions between the viceroyalty of Peru, then split into Peru and La Plata, and the growing state of Brazil, at the time deeper-reaching and better administered than to-be Argentina, which remained a recent (and late) viceroyalty

- geographically, Maranhão (Amazon basin) is a separate river basin from the plains of northeast Brazil. It was also explored at a later date
- Maranhão was historically ruled as a separate state before being incorporated into the state of Brazil only late in the 18th century.
 

Sanguine Caesar

Legatus Missus
37 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
388
17
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
A bit farther to the south, I would also suggest splitting Maranhão from Brazil.

As for Canada and Hudson Bay, the current colonial regions corresponds to the modern state borders of Brazil.

However, there are historical arguments for the split :
- The treaty of Tordesillas granted a territory much smaller than the modern boundary of Brazil to Portugal. The state of Maranhão, which also ruled over the amazon basin, was almost entirely out of the region granted under that treaty
Besides, the granted territory was also slowly overextended to the Southwest across the Rio de La Plata river basin. Uruguay and Upper Peru notably were disputed regions between the viceroyalty of Peru, then split into Peru and La Plata, and the growing state of Brazil, at the time deeper-reaching and better administered than to-be Argentina, which remained a recent (and late) viceroyalty

- geographically, Maranhão (Amazon basin) is a separate river basin from the plains of northeast Brazil. It was also explored at a later date
- Maranhão was historically ruled as a separate state before being incorporated into the state of Brazil only late in the 18th century.
Interesting; I will have to take a deeper look into it at some point in the future :)
 

ZomgK3tchup

Into the Future
125 Badges
Dec 25, 2009
4.184
1.484
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Lead and Gold
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Gettysburg
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Deus Vult
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
However, what I would totally be supporting would be a rework of the colonial regions based on areas and regions to allow for smaller colonies to form (2-3 provinces) while bigger ones (union-tag) would be formed by decision of the overlord.
One thing that has always bothered me is that it as England you colonize Boston and Florida only, despite being hundred of miles away, they would form as a single entity.
I believe, in the contrary, that we should have the ability to form them as separate colonies (which they were) and then merge them under a viceroyalty (of the Thirteen Colonies iN this case).
CNs based on regions works out well for the Thirteen Colonies.

Specifically, there are already regions that correspond with the Plymouth Charter and the Virginia Charter, the Northeast and Southeast regions, respectively. Coincidentally, there's also a Hudson Bay region.

If the New World ever gets reworked, I'd recommend a Florida region as well since it doesn't make a lot of sense to have Florida lumped in with Virginia.
 

Sanguine Caesar

Legatus Missus
37 Badges
Aug 10, 2017
388
17
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife Pre-Order
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
If the New World ever gets reworked, I'd recommend a Florida region as well since it doesn't make a lot of sense to have Florida lumped in with Virginia.
Isn't Florida a bit small for its own CN though? Just wondering if that's what you mean
 

ZomgK3tchup

Into the Future
125 Badges
Dec 25, 2009
4.184
1.484
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Lead and Gold
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • The Kings Crusade
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • March of the Eagles
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Pirates of Black Cove
  • Gettysburg
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Supreme Ruler 2020
  • Supreme Ruler: Cold War
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • The Showdown Effect
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Deus Vult
  • Cities in Motion
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Commander: Conquest of the Americas
  • Darkest Hour
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • For the Motherland
Isn't Florida a bit small for its own CN though? Just wondering if that's what you mean
Depends on how small Paradox is willing to make colonial regions.

Florida is in a strange position because it has no business being in the Thirteen Colonies CN. It belonged to Spain until the Seven Years' War when it was ceded to Great Britain but returned to Spain after the American Revolution. It remained part of Spain until West Florida (the coasts of modern-day Alabama and Mississippi) was taken by the United States after in the 1810s. The rest of Florida didn't join the United States until 1821, just a couple months after the game ended.

A strong argument could be made for including it in the Caribbean CN, but I'm partial to the idea of the Caribbean CN being broken up into Cuba, Hispaniola, and the Lesser Antilles, which would mean keeping Florida as part of the Thirteen Colonies CN or making it its own. I'd prefer the latter.

A Florida CN (including West Florida) would be 10 provinces.
 

otaats

That Boi
30 Badges
Nov 26, 2016
1.081
93
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II
I say yes to more CNs! Would be nice to see some historic flags of Cuba, Florida, New Spain, etc..
And a TC in Canada might just make that region more enticing to colonize (actually, it definitely will), and change the gameplay (maybe for the better concerning French-English hostilities).