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Alerias

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I believe that as a rule of thumb, it is "Good gameplay" to ensure that the players' actions make or break his success, more or less. Most of the time, Paradox seems to agree.

HTTT has some frustrating diplomatic issues in that light, whereas good behavior on the part of the player is discouraged rather than encouraged as it typically has been in EU3 diplomacy.

Straight to the point: A peaceful nation who cultivates ties and marriages with its neighbors is severely punished in 4.0. Marriages cause large drops in relations because the AI is always claiming the Thrones of everyone else, and the player suffers despite high Legitimacy and no Infamy, just for being married to them. Proposed solutions: Either Claiming a Throne should only damage the relations of the two concerned parties, or it should only damage other relations when the Player, rather than the AI, does it. Either way, the frequency at which the AI claims Thrones should be reduced in 4.1.

Secundo, theres the issue of alliances. The Ai regularly Dows people without CBs now, and this inflicts large stab hits on the player if he allies AI nations. This is, IMO, unacceptable as a game mechanic. The AI ought to either not DoW without a CB, or the player ought to either not receive a call to arms when such a thing happens, or to benefit nontheless from an "Aid an Ally!" CB and get no stab hit. A third option would be to ensure that calls to arms without a CB can be declined without damaging either Relations, Trust, Prestige, nor Breaking the Alliance.

There are other small issues, but these are, so far, my two biggest gripes with the system so far. I think theyre easily fixable and should really not be left as-is past 4.1. I welcome your thoughts.
 

semaphore

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Just be more selective with your Royal Marriages. Realistically, I think there is something very wrong with the old system where the player would generally marry a dozen royal children to the rest of Europe. The new system makes royal marriages actually a serious concern rather then something you'd spam because there's next to no negative effects.

Besides, I don't quite see why royal marriages should count as good behaviour. I personally always feel bad about selling my children for political gains :(
 

Alerias

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I disagree... this is just frustrating because you suffer consequences because of the bad decisions of the AI, not yours. The current system is broken in this regards, though HTTT is a very fun expansion in most respects.

I dont mind getting a penalty for claiming thrones, but my relations with A should never EVER be affected because B is being an ass. At a minimum, Paradox should give modders the option of changing or removing the relations penalty for claiming thrones; I dont mind if using this option myself causes problems, but I should NOT suffer because AI countries are claim-throne-happy.
 

Tiax

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When a country with whom you have a royal marriage claims a third party's throne, I think you should have the option to support their claim, thereby taking a minor or no relation it with them, but tanking your relation with the third party.
 

Alerias

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When a country with whom you have a royal marriage claims a third party's throne, I think you should have the option to support their claim, thereby taking a minor or no relation it with them, but tanking your relation with the third party.

Thats a possible solution, yes. As long as it is the player's choices that determine the consequences, everything is fair. Its unmerited consequences that fly in the face of unified gaming theory :)
 

unmerged(150428)

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You make a good point as far as the actions of others shouldn't affect you, and I like the idea of supporting the claim.

But I haven't really encountered this problem so much so far. I'm selective with royal marriages.
 

unmerged(174159)

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Sorry but who you let into your family should reflect on you, if they're an ass, to a degree. Like your annoying Son in Law's parents that take you out to a resteurant and then they slam the waiter. He's going to dislike you too (not as much as them, but still a bit!).
 

Alerias

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Sorry but who you let into your family should reflect on you, if they're an ass, to a degree. Like your annoying Son in Law's parents that take you out to a resteurant and then they slam the waiter. He's going to dislike you too (not as much as them, but still a bit!).

Its a game, and the purpose is to have fun. Frustrating and unchosen consequences suck for players. Im sure Paradox can recognize that, or at least give us the option to mod our way out of it.

Unfortunately, most of diplomacy's consequences are hardcoded. Believe me, if I could fix it myself in Defines.txt, you wouldnt be reading my whining ;)
 

unmerged(174159)

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I can understand how it's frustrating. Perhaps stop marrying your children off to people who declare war when the emissary sneezes though? Like others have said, they're not having any issues by merely being selective.
 

Alerias

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Perhaps stop marrying your children off to people who declare war when the emissary sneezes though?

Its not people. Its an AI. And the AI unfortunately claim thrones left and right.

The AI should do a much more selective job of deciding who to stab in the back, at a minimum. Until then, I should not be held responsible for its stupidity. :mad:
 

Alexander Seil

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Its a game, and the purpose is to have fun. Frustrating and unchosen consequences suck for players. Im sure Paradox can recognize that, or at least give us the option to mod our way out of it.

Unfortunately, most of diplomacy's consequences are hardcoded. Believe me, if I could fix it myself in Defines.txt, you wouldnt be reading my whining ;)

The player-driven decision you're looking for consists in making an RM offer in the first place. You're reaping the consequences of whoring yourself around. Same with alliance. No one's forcing you to be in 5 with every aggressive state in Europe.
 

Alerias

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Gah. The AI is the one proposing royal marriages in bulk in the first place, and refusing them gets you relation drops in case you didnt realize it.

Nontheless, youre all defending awful design. I cant argue against that and Ill rest my case. This being said, its a mistake to trust blindly in what amounts to a huge AI failure. I'm hoping Paradox aren't as blind and that they fix their own mistakes ASAP!
 

semaphore

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Its not people. Its an AI. And the AI unfortunately claim thrones left and right.

The AI should do a much more selective job of deciding who to stab in the back, at a minimum. Until then, I should not be held responsible for its stupidity. :mad:

Actually if you are selective with Royal Marriages, you probably won't find the AI claiming thrones as often as you're implying. We're not defending a flawed design, we're disagreeing with your concept of a flawed design. I'm really unconvinced that having a dozen royal marriages each generation shouldn't be a bad idea.

The AI proposing RM with you still gives you the choice of saying no for a very insignificant relations drop.
 

Covertops22

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Ubik will fix it for MMP2, and if you guys havn't tried MMP2 yet, you should. They are working for a port to MMP2 with HTTT.

Anyway, I think it's all a part of how Vanilla works, where everything is very unrealistic. I feel for you guys that are using this expansion and have these bad situations going on.

I would hope that Johan and the Paradox team will try and fix these issues, but it's been known that it takes Modders to fix the issues with these games. I would hate to try and push a mod on people that don't like them.

Other than waiting for the MMP team to update MMP2 with HTTT, I would have to use a cliche line and say wait for the patch.
 

semaphore

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Ubik will fix it for MMP2, and if you guys havn't tried MMP2 yet, you should.

I would hate to try and push a mod on people that don't like them.

*cough*

Anyway, not everyone thinks that this is broken. Mod are great in giving us a different style of game within the EU3 framework, but it's a different flavour as opposed to the definitive answer to life, the universe and everything.
 

wright1331

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My biggest diplomatic complaint is that when you try to settle for peace and give a province to an ally who took it, Your the one who takes the Infamy hit for it.

This is most annoying if your helping an ally who declares war on someone, even if you do nothing the whole time while hes taking back his core provinces you still screwed if you want to help them out. Sometimes they will peace out and take the province and the infamy themselves, but not always.
 

Darkrenown

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Secundo, theres the issue of alliances. The Ai regularly Dows people without CBs now, and this inflicts large stab hits on the player if he allies AI nations. This is, IMO, unacceptable as a game mechanic. The AI ought to either not DoW without a CB, or the player ought to either not receive a call to arms when such a thing happens, or to benefit nontheless from an "Aid an Ally!" CB and get no stab hit. A third option would be to ensure that calls to arms without a CB can be declined without damaging either Relations, Trust, Prestige, nor Breaking the Alliance.

Sometimes you just don't have a handy CB but you want to DoW anyway, so I wouldn't forbid the AI from DoWing without one.

Not getting a penalty, or getting a reduced one for declining a call without a valid CB was something I thought about too during the beta. However I concluded that it didn't really fit with the alliance system. When you sign an alliance in EU it's a FULL alliance, you're agreeing to support your ally no matter what, and if you don't live up to this you suffer for it by losing prestige. If you're not willing to support a nation fully, including if they dow without a CB, you shouldn't be allying with them.