Nikolai

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Hallsten: What good would it be in removing the province from the HRE, if the only you get from it is more money?
 

Hallsten

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Nikolai said:
Hallsten: What good would it be in removing the province from the HRE, if the only you get from it is more money?
Money is a reward in itself, is it not? Aside from the money, however, the boni of being emperor should depend on the size of the HRE. Small HRE => weak emperor.
 

Registered

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5678 said:
Only when human players are concerned. AI's wealth is usually determined by the number of provinces it owns. :)
Which, for most countries, is more realistic.
 

5678

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Mork said:
Something like a CB on any attackers of the HRE, unless the reciever of the CB is in the war against the state in the HRE itself.
Higher relation hit on any annexation inside the HRE towards the rest of the HRE.
Though this should probably not extent to neither Italy nor the low countries.

That's not drastic enough. When an HRE state is attacked by a foreigner, the emperor should have the option to form a sort of super coalition and intervene, or take a large stab, relations and BB hit if they decline.
 

5678

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Hallsten said:
I'd love to see the HRE turn into a more lively entity in EU3:
  • When a new emperor going to be elected I'd love to see each elector being able to vote actively for any eligible prince.
  • If a HRE member is annexed there should be two choices:
    1. Annex nation and assume electorship.
    2. Annex nation and remove it from the HRE. This should lead to, say, an increase in income, but would trigger a war with the emperor. This war would make it possible to bring back said province to the HRE.

Yeah, I like that. :)
 

miloc

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The emperor should not be able to diplo-annex members of the HRE.
Why?
-because historically the emperor guaranteed their existence; swallowing up one of the member states would have resulted in the united resistance of the other states, since it would have endangered their independence.
-Concerning gameplay it would counterbalance the stronger position of the emperor it the suggestions above would be implemented.

and I don't think the election of the emperor was merely a matter of bribes; they rather chose someone they could trust; someone who wouldn't be a danger for their independence. With the Habsburgs they knew what they had. So its rather a bad-boy thing.

My 2 cts.
 
Last edited:

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Generally, I think it's very important not to overstate the importance of the HRE. Already by 1453, it's much different from the classical high medieval Empire, and over the course of the EUIII period, it became more of a prestige concept and less of a political reality.

By this time, both the emperors and the electoral prince were depending more and more on their own states, which caused the Empire as such to decline in importance. So I definitely don't think the Emperor should have more power than he does in EUII, and even that may need to be scaled down a bit.
 

miloc

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AKjeldsen said:
Generally, I think it's very important not to overstate the importance of the HRE. Already by 1453, it's much different from the classical high medieval Empire, and over the course of the EUIII period, it became more of a prestige concept and less of a political reality.

By this time, both the emperors and the electoral prince were depending more and more on their own states, which caused the Empire as such to decline in importance. So I definitely don't think the Emperor should have more power than he does in EUII, and even that may need to be scaled down a bit.

at least it had the effect that it allowed all the principalities and entities of the HRE to survive until Napoleon. And they were pritty united against France in the Spanish war of succession, that's not nothing. And the HRE adds a lot of "flair" to the game, as long it doesn't turn into a playground for blobbs.
 

Kliwarrior

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Historically there were just 7 Electors (8 after the peace of Westfalia).
The possibility to have a "double vote" (that is a Elector country annexed by another Elector country) should be cause a dramatically drop of relationship toward other german countries.

I mean, who owns Maintz and Cologne should have both the vote of these two, but the player (and the Ai) should find more conveniente to release one of them vassals, unless so powerfull to defy the whole empire..

During the election, the relation with the Electors and the religion (catholic/reformed) should count, with a possibility of "one shot bribe". (similar to events during Vicky elections).
 

AKjeldsen

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miloc said:
at least it had the effect that it allowed all the principalities and entities of the HRE to survive until Napoleon. And they were pritty united against France in the Spanish war of succession, that's not nothing. And the HRE adds a lot of "flair" to the game, as long it doesn't turn into a playground for blobbs.
Everyone was united against France in that war. ;)

I'm not saying the HRE should be removed or anything, it just seems like some people are overestimating how important it actually was.
 

George LeS

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miloc said:
The emperor should not be able to diplo-annex members of the HRE.
Why?
-because historically the emperor guaranteed their existence; swallowing up one of the member states would have resulted in the united resistance of the other states, since it would have endangered their independence.
-Concerning gameplay it would counterbalance the stronger position of the emperor it the suggestions above would be implemented.

and I don't think the election of the emperor was merely a matter of bribes; they rather chose someone they could trust; someone who wouldn't be a danger for their independence. With the Habsburgs they knew what they had. So its rather a bad-boy thing.

My 2 cts.

If that's 2 cents, it's at 1453 valuation. An excellent post.
 

5678

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AKjeldsen said:
Generally, I think it's very important not to overstate the importance of the HRE. Already by 1453, it's much different from the classical high medieval Empire, and over the course of the EUIII period, it became more of a prestige concept and less of a political reality.

By this time, both the emperors and the electoral prince were depending more and more on their own states, which caused the Empire as such to decline in importance. So I definitely don't think the Emperor should have more power than he does in EUII, and even that may need to be scaled down a bit.

The HRE effectively thwarted any attempts by foreign powers to dominate Germany. That's a big deal. It wasn't until the end of Thiry Years War (200 years into the game) that the HRE actually became nothing more than a title. And even as a title, it was important enough that Napoleon didn't claim it, he dissolved it.
 

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AKjeldsen said:
Generally, I think it's very important not to overstate the importance of the HRE. Already by 1453, it's much different from the classical high medieval Empire, and over the course of the EUIII period, it became more of a prestige concept and less of a political reality.

By this time, both the emperors and the electoral prince were depending more and more on their own states, which caused the Empire as such to decline in importance. So I definitely don't think the Emperor should have more power than he does in EUII, and even that may need to be scaled down a bit.

Why not have a dynamic HRE then? Events would occure at certain periods of the game where the HRE would lose powers. B/c, eventually, you have all out war in Germany. It would be great if the HRE lost ablilities over time. And maybe give the Emperor chances to save his powers, but at a cost.
 

AKjeldsen

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DukeWilleo1630 said:
Why not have a dynamic HRE then? Events would occure at certain periods of the game where the HRE would lose powers. B/c, eventually, you have all out war in Germany. It would be great if the HRE lost ablilities over time. And maybe give the Emperor chances to save his powers, but at a cost.
That's a really good idea.



"Your Imperial Majesty, Brandenburg is growing more independent and forgetful of their duties to The Empire.

A. Declare war!
B. Spend money on an important ceremony to reinforce the prestige of the Empire.
C. We have more important matters to deal with."
 
M

Mowers

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5678 said:
The HRE effectively thwarted any attempts by foreign powers to dominate Germany. That's a big deal. It wasn't until the end of Thiry Years War (200 years into the game) that the HRE actually became nothing more than a title. And even as a title, it was important enough that Napoleon didn't claim it, he dissolved it.

And thats the key here.

They did manage to, by and large, thwart attempts to control the HRE.

Why did that happen? When you know, build it into the model.
 

5678

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Mowers said:
And thats the key here.

They did manage to, by and large, thwart attempts to control the HRE.

Why did that happen? When you know, build it into the model.

Because they were able to recognize a threat when they saw it. While it might've been in the prince's interests to see a more decentralized structure, or the Habsburg's interests to see a more unified structure, it was in no one's interests to see foreigners start annexing member states.
 

Duuk

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Stingray said:
Most countries wealth was based on the amount of land they owned and could tax, not the amount of merchants or their trade.

Except, of course, for Portugal, England, Holland, the Hanseatic League, Venice, Genoa, and a host of other countries that had per-capita incomes that would blow the mind of a modern country. :D