HRE countries not bothered by HRE reforms

[TheodoreThumb]

I think by this point we all realize that forming HRE is way too easy.

Most people suggested changes to make it more difficult to pass those decisions, I think that doesn't speak to the core of the problem. It seems to me like the real problem is this: HRE states, most importantly the electors, do not feel threatened or bothered in any way with these changes. That's both not practical in terms of how easy it makes the process to form HRE and not historical: The only reason why no country was able to form the empire was because the princes were too keen to not give up their freedom and responded negatively to emperors who tried to increase their authority through reforms like these.

I suggest a change in a recent patch for plausible AI behavior. I think passing reforms should have a very negative impact on the emperor's relations with all HRE states; if not the first few ones then certainly the later ones because they take away from HRE countries and give nothing in return. For non-elector members, it could be acceptable to see some countries leaving the union as well (AI can make use of "Join the Holy Roman Empire" decision, can it also abandon it?) In short, it must be harder for a reforming emperor to get re-elected.

Also, do you know whether or not it's a real voting process once a reform is passed? I mean if the majority of countries respond negatively to reforms, do they not pass? If so, why do AI-led members keep accepting the reforms, even when they are extremely harmful for their countries?

 

[Darkrenown]

Yes, there is a vote, and larger nations are more prone to vote no, but there's 1vote per nation, so all the small states voting yes tend to pass the reforms.

 

[unmerged(145401)]

Several do break off with the second to last decision, though. By the time I took it, only like Avignon (joined during the game obviously), Savoy, Tirol, Holland, and Pommerania did, though.

 

[Junuxx]

I think the reform that abolishes the electors should only pass if the Emperor has vassalized and/or allied several of the electors.

 

[Esben_DRK]

Why should the electors accept their power to go down the drain because of an alliance, though?
I just can't see why electors should give up all their power in order to get nothing in return. It was simply not the way it worked. If the emperor could not enforce his plan on the Empire, it wouldn't get done - and I don't think it should be as easy to enforce it as H3T makes it out to be.

 

[Junuxx]

Because it would ensure that there's an Emperor who's on their side? If the alternative is picking an Emperor who they are not very friendly with at all, they might prefer to hand in some of their autonomy to their friends.

 

[Esben_DRK]

Because it would ensure that there's an Emperor who's on their side? If the alternative is picking an Emperor who they are not very friendly with at all, they might prefer to hand in some of their autonomy to their friends.

Yes, if the electors were in such a dilemma, they might have been forced to choose between freedom & chaos or a hereditary emperor.

This is just not the case. In my Austria, I stopped playing when I had taken the decision to chain the rest of the Empire into vassalage. It's just not fun afterwards. But I defended the Empire well enough without being hereditary, and I had 6 out of 8 votes (Bavaria and Bohemia had one each). It wasn't at all the case that I was about to loose power and the empire descend into anarchy.

 

[monsterfurby]

Because it would ensure that there's an Emperor who's on their side? If the alternative is picking an Emperor who they are not very friendly with at all, they might prefer to hand in some of their autonomy to their friends.

Unless you would be able to wipe the floor with the Emperor anyhow when it came down to a test of military might/economic power/diplomatic support. This, I believe, was the case more often than not.

 

[Musthavename]

What I think would make sense:

-When Elections are abolished, any remotly sizeable elector (say, 3 provinces or more?), will feel agrieved about their loss of voting power and stand up to the Emperor and leave. After all, if you were something more than a simple Duchy, you'd want to retain that vote.

-Vassalisation decision should automatically fail against any sizeable state. Why would the King of Bohemia decide he wants to swear complete fealty to the Emperor?

What this would mean, is that if as Emperor you curbed the power of the states, and kept them as OPM/TPMs, they would surrender to your whim. If they consolidated into blocks, they'd figure themselves powerful enough to want to retain independence.

 

[The Witch-King]

There needs to be more coercion and military violence involved for these HRE unification reforms. Anything else is simply not realistic.

Historically, attempts by the emperor to establish hegemony were resisted and ended up in the 30 years war, which halved or thirded the population of Germany. That's quite a bit different from how it works un EU3 HTTT, actually it's currently better modelled in EU3 IN, where the way to gain control (and with no permanency assured, that's also a big point) is force-vassalising the electors.

 

[Profane]

I would like to have the last reform only possible if there is big enough outside threat(s) to the hre, as in the hre banding together in the face of aggression from a great power.

 

[Grubnessul]

I would suggest a model where the authority isn't consumed but functions as a threshold. E.g. the first decision can be past when an emperor has 5 authority, the 2nd with 10 authority, the third with 20 authority etc. All + authority modifiers should give 1 or less authority under this model. Authority should decrease with a amount multiplied with the diplomatic skill of the emperor yearly (maybe the relation with the other members should be taken into account). Finaly, the authority should decrease (triggering events to abolish the reforms) a lot when the next emperor is chosen (resembling the lobbying with the electors for the new election) if he's from the same state or even completly whiped if he's from a new state outside the Empire.