HRE advice (as Duke of Bavaria)

[Faber81]

Ok, first time playing inside the HRE and I'm a bit in a stalemate here, cause the HRE skyrocketed the crown law to absolute really fast and it seems I can't create or join a decent lower crown law authority faction (It reaches at max. 30% of the Kaiser power). I managed to gain all the duchy of Bavaria (started as count of Nurberg) just before the CA switched to medium and i created an antipope for cash sake and to cut to pieces all the blobs that are ruling my scenario (anyway the MA is 100, so no erethics by now -april 1196-).
I'm starting to play the marriage game now, so I'll gain a piece of land here and there, but it's like a drop in the sea (the HRE controls all north africa, a bit of mali, a french duchy and some land in the north east apart from the starting territory). How can I fasten the "let's crash the HRE from the inside" plan? Are there any ways to erode the emperor's power?
Any suggestion is more than welcome.
I really don't want to become emperor btw...

 

[n000b]

Become King, get rid of your anti pope and start excommunicating Der Kaiser.

 

[Ithvan]

Assassinate everybody.

Make sure a kid is elected to the throne.

Get yourself elected, be the worst emperor ever (give in to all faction demands) and when everybody hates your guts, vote for somebody else, leaving him with the mess.

 

[Faber81]

Become King, get rid of your anti pope and start excommunicating Der Kaiser.

It's a good plan, I'll think about it (but it's difficult to became king, unless i get lucky with marriages, and defeating the papacy it's not an easy task actually).

Assassinate everybody.

Make sure a kid is elected to the throne.

Get yourself elected, be the worst emperor ever (give in to all faction demands) and when everybody hates your guts, vote for somebody else, leaving him with the mess.

Problem with assassinations it's that cost a lot of money, and my antipope rule only over 5 bishops (my total income is a little more than 12 gold/month). My fear is that if i fail I'll be imprisoned and in the worst case banished, in the best case i got my duchy or some counties revoked. I don't know if the risk it's not worth the effort (or the game isn't worth the candle, hope my english is correct).

Anyway, i'll try. Probably the best choice will be being elected and throw the empire in total chaos even though i'd rather not to became emperor.
Thanks for the tips, if anyone has other strategies please feel free to comment

 

[markmid]

It's a good plan, I'll think about it (but it's difficult to became king, unless i get lucky with marriages, and defeating the papacy it's not an easy task actually).


Problem with assassinations it's that cost a lot of money, and my antipope rule only over 5 bishops (my total income is a little more than 12 gold/month). My fear is that if i fail I'll be imprisoned and in the worst case banished, in the best case i got my duchy or some counties revoked. I don't know if the risk it's not worth the effort (or the game isn't worth the candle, hope my english is correct).

Anyway, i'll try. Probably the best choice will be being elected and throw the empire in total chaos even though i'd rather not to became emperor.
Thanks for the tips, if anyone has other strategies please feel free to comment

A cheaper way to get lots of people to hate you is to just keep imprisoning and banishing (barons). Its a nice gamey way to build up mercenary money too, if you need to keep a few thousand men standing around to make sure you are not invaded, and if you are to crush anyone who does, paid for by your own imprisoned and banished titles. You are likely to be excommunicated and all that, but by the end of it, as long as you keep a thousand gold or more stacked up you can take on most all comers and then get a fresh slate as a son (which imho needs to be nerfed) City mayors are the best for this as they seem to generate the most income, so take venice. Alternatively you could use some of this money to fund assassinations.

This is how you bring down the HRE or any empire by the way.

Crown law has no wiggle room imho as its too easy to build up and hold, so I mod it down, both to give me a harder game and the AI. No crown law has total peace in my game, and only the higher ones prevent wars between vassals. An imperfect solution but without more drops in the crown law, inside the HRE, its the best option.

-edit
I had the duke of bavaria declare war on me, he had an alliance but hated me that much -500 tyrant modifier or something, half my baron vassals joined in so I got all their titles in one fell swoop (free imprisonment). With infinite money almost, this works well, just keep those mercs standing around as you'll need them and won't have to fork out their hire costs as much.

 

[Faber81]

A cheaper way to get lots of people to hate you is to just keep imprisoning and banishing (barons). Its a nice gamey way to build up mercenary money too, if you need to keep a few thousand men standing around to make sure you are not invaded, and if you are to crush anyone who does, paid for by your own imprisoned and banished titles. You are likely to be excommunicated and all that, but by the end of it, as long as you keep a thousand gold or more stacked up you can take on most all comers and then get a fresh slate as a son (which imho needs to be nerfed) City mayors are the best for this as they seem to generate the most income, so take venice. Alternatively you could use some of this money to fund assassinations.

This is how you bring down the HRE or any empire by the way.

Crown law has no wiggle room imho as its too easy to build up and hold, so I mod it down, both to give me a harder game and the AI. No crown law has total peace in my game, and only the higher ones prevent wars between vassals. An imperfect solution but without more drops in the crown law, inside the HRE, its the best option.

-edit
I had the duke of bavaria declare war on me, he had an alliance but hated me that much -500 tyrant modifier or something, half my baron vassals joined in so I got all their titles in one fell swoop (free imprisonment). With infinite money almost, this works well, just keep those mercs standing around as you'll need them and won't have to fork out their hire costs as much.

I'll try that too if I ever become emperor. I couldn't take Venice because of the absolute crown authority that prevented me to wage any war.. I don't even know if I could have joined a crusade actually... Anyway i managed to gain indipendence (don't even ask me how, i just joined any kind of faction that could free me from the imperial claws, then the indipendence war popped out and after less then a month I was free. Someone captured the kaiser in battle i guess).

 

[markmid]

To lift any excommunication, which is the more major factor to this tactic if you happen to have a ruler survive too long. If you find yourself on bad grounds with the pope, the money will again solve that or you can wait till the pope dies and then his successor will again like you more. Releasing a few imprisoned people from any wars should give you piety, the 25 gold or so ransom for a generic character is worth trading for piety instead (free release) in this case.

 

[Faber81]

Thanks for the tips, becoming emperor it's the only way out it seems, I'm back to square one after the HRE declared war on me (luckily I've grabbed Venice and the County of Tirol thanks to a revolt meanwhile so it was the latter the target of the kaiser. I lost Tirol to the uber army and soon after the peace i sweared fealty to the empire).
It's a difficult game but I'm really enjoing it!

 

[unmerged(600321)]

I usually just get big enough to force the emperor to do what I want till I decide its time to take over the empire. Build a strong economy and grow (fabricate claims to grow till medium crown authority, then look outside the HRE for growth (easy for Bavaria, since not too far from lands outside HRE). Buy mercs when needed for wars as you will be weaker than Kings outside HRE. Get your own Kingdom (Bavaria) when you can. Keep expanding and getting land and improving your economy. Save 4-5k gold, get a claim on the HRE (if you want the Empire, or don't get a claim if you don't) and depose the ruler. 5k gold is enough to hire mercs to take out the HRE if you have a decent Kingdom/Levys to support it.

Win the war and take over the HRE or see it in someone elses hands or just ask for lowered crown authority. If you ahve allies for lower crown authority, 2-3k gold could be enough to win the war (really depends on your size). I only have played 2 games inside the HRE, and in both, I easily forced the Emperor to keep crown authority low because I was big, rich, and powerful. 12 gold/month is not enough. Set your levys low and taxes high (max taxes for all types). And build mainly cities. You should get 50+ gold/month easy while in the HRE. In the late game (1300 and later), once you get big, 300+ gold is also very feasible. While a vassal in the HRE though, 50+ is fairly easy and feasible in the mid 1100s.

 

[Faber81]

Yes, but as i said in the opening post the HRE went to absolute crown authority really fast (I barely managed to take control of all the counties of my de jure duchy by the time it switched to medium - starting as a count). I can't declare wars (apart against the kaiser itself). As people suggested I see only 3 options: 1) grow bigger with marriages and intrigue 2) become emperor and destroy the empire from within 3) gain indipendence and expanding with wars.
The third option it's actually out of reach, as i descovered by experience (being utterly defeated for the county of Tirol during my indipendent days).

EDIT: now the question is: how can i became emperor with only the duchy of Bavaria and Venice as holdings (6 in total)?