HQ's

[Snaggleooo]

I've sat and read every page of the manual over the last couple of hours. It's great to have it, but I've found one issue that I'm not entirely happy with; HQ's can only have 5 units attached to them. I find this a touch historically inaccurate, as a number of armies had large numbers of support brigades/battalions attached to Army/Group HQ. Also, during late 1941 to 1943, the Soviets almost completely dispensed with Corps HQs, and had armies of 4-12 divisions attached directly to Army HQ. I hope this issue can be modded, or is patched up.

Mind you, this is the only issue I found in the manual, and it's small enough just to make me sound like a nit-picker. I expect you've created a masterpiece and I can't wait to get my hands on the game on Friday.

 

[dsteve3]

There is a certain amount of 'homogenization' that goes into any game. In this case, there is a set formula for unit formations that is applied uniformly to every nation.

Historically, the terms battalion, regiment, brigade, division, corps, (and on) meant different things to different national armies. The scope of this game just can't handle that. Personally, if I had to sit down and determine the entire flow of authority for the entire national force, I'd go insane. Better to abstract a little bit.

The formula provided gives a means of translating the importance of officer leadership, and forces players to adopt strategies to distribute leadership for this purpose vs. diplomacy, research, and intelligence. I'm find it an interesting approach to mitigate the needs and demands of these different fields.

 

[unmerged(11986)]

I've sat and read every page of the manual over the last couple of hours. It's great to have it, but I've found one issue that I'm not entirely happy with; HQ's can only have 5 units attached to them. I find this a touch historically inaccurate, as a number of armies had large numbers of support brigades/battalions attached to Army/Group HQ. Also, during late 1941 to 1943, the Soviets almost completely dispensed with Corps HQs, and had armies of 4-12 divisions attached directly to Army HQ. I hope this issue can be modded, or is patched up.

Mind you, this is the only issue I found in the manual, and it's small enough just to make me sound like a nit-picker. I expect you've created a masterpiece and I can't wait to get my hands on the game on Friday.

I saw this too and it worried me. However on Page 65 of the manual it shows a picture of Heersgruppe Sud with 3 Army's 2 Corps and 3 Divisions attached. So I am confused as to whether this is a correct picture or if I read the manual wrong.

 

[Sirveri]

I've sat and read every page of the manual over the last couple of hours. It's great to have it, but I've found one issue that I'm not entirely happy with; HQ's can only have 5 units attached to them. I find this a touch historically inaccurate, as a number of armies had large numbers of support brigades/battalions attached to Army/Group HQ. Also, during late 1941 to 1943, the Soviets almost completely dispensed with Corps HQs, and had armies of 4-12 divisions attached directly to Army HQ. I hope this issue can be modded, or is patched up.

Mind you, this is the only issue I found in the manual, and it's small enough just to make me sound like a nit-picker. I expect you've created a masterpiece and I can't wait to get my hands on the game on Friday.

I haven't read the manual yet, but doesn't that mean that your Army group can have 5 corps attached to it which in turn have 5 Divisions attached for a total of 25 divisions attached to the Army Group? Sure they're not attached directly, but you'll still need to have something in place to organise them, just attach a corp and then the support units all under that corp, scale up as need be.

 

[RegularK]

It'd be nice to bump it up to 6 just so it's even

 

[Wulf145]

I haven't read the manual yet, but doesn't that mean that your Army group can have 5 corps attached to it which in turn have 5 Divisions attached for a total of 25 divisions attached to the Army Group? Sure they're not attached directly, but you'll still need to have something in place to organise them, just attach a corp and then the support units all under that corp, scale up as need be.

You left out one 'level':
Corps 5 Div
Army 5 Corps
Army Group 5 Armies
Theatre 5 Army Groups

Therefore Max Div p. Theartre = 625 Divisions

IMHO thats plenty.

 

[MadlockUK]

You left out one 'level':
Corps 5 Div
Army 5 Corps
Army Group 5 Armies
Theatre 5 Army Groups

Therefore Max Div p. Theartre = 625 Divisions

IMHO thats plenty.

jaw drops . . . that's unholy . . .

 

[Wulf145]

jaw drops . . . that's unholy . . .

I'm not religious, so its fine for me.

 

[dsteve3]

jaw drops . . . that's unholy . . .

Heh; ya - I assumed that we were discussing as per Snaggleooo's original post about clumping a bunch of divisions directly into a single army.

The bottom line is that the player will have to organize his army the way he wants, but within the general structure of the formula provided by the game. There won't be national variations until someone comes out with a mod - then it will be a horror to balance it all out.

Edit: it says max divisions per HQ is five, but doesn't say that there is a max to the number of lower HQ's that can be assigned to a higher HQ, does it?

2nd Edit: That's 5 divisions per HQ, so you can have 5 divisions in a Corps, then 5 divisions attached directly to the Army HQ plus the Corps HQ's, ...

 

[Sirveri]

You left out one 'level':
Corps 5 Div
Army 5 Corps
Army Group 5 Armies
Theatre 5 Army Groups

Therefore Max Div p. Theartre = 625 Divisions

IMHO thats plenty.

The thread in question was talking specifically about armies/groups and how you could only attach a limited number of support brigades because of unit cap. My point was that you could still simulate that by simply placing them under a corp, even though the Soviets historically didn't pursue that organisational structure. It's all about game balance and generalisation, all those support brigades WILL have some sort of organisational support structure, even if it's not called a corps.

 

[Snaggleooo]

Heh; ya - I assumed that we were discussing as per Snaggleooo's original post about clumping a bunch of divisions directly into a single army.

The bottom line is that the player will have to organize his army the way he wants, but within the general structure of the formula provided by the game. There won't be national variations until someone comes out with a mod - then it will be a horror to balance it all out.

Edit: it says max divisions per HQ is five, but doesn't say that there is a max to the number of lower HQ's that can be assigned to a higher HQ, does it?

2nd Edit: That's 5 divisions per HQ, so you can have 5 divisions in a Corps, then 5 divisions attached directly to the Army HQ plus the Corps HQ's, ...

That's what I'm really keen to find out. I don't mind so much about getting the historical OoB correct, or about having Armies with more than 5 Corps. What I'm really worried about is the number of independent brigades than can be attached, as these are air and naval units too.

If you have an Army of 4 Corps, will this mean you can only attach 1 air wing directly to Army HQ? I realise you could fit additional air wings into the Corps HQ, but it would mean that a theatre with a large chain of command would only be able to attach a couple of supporting brigades. This is my biggest worry.

EDIT: I forgot air and naval units can be attached to HQs in my first post. The inability to attach a decent number of air wings to an Army worries me far more than getting the historical formation of the Soviet Army correct, although it would be nice.

 

[ollobrains]

its a worry but im sure will be modded , paradox may even include tech parts of national advantages ie soviets that might modify the data on HQ and what can be attached

 

[Baneslave]

ollobrains: I am pretty sure that there isn't any national technologies.

 

[Amallric]

I just hope it can be modded so I just set like 99 and be happy with it. I think paradox went for 5 for balance purposes, otherwise it's too easy to have your whole military grouped in 1 single army/group/theatre so you don't have to spend officers for those additional HQ's.

 

[Baneslave]

I just hope it can be modded so I just set like 99 and be happy with it. I think paradox went for 5 for balance purposes, otherwise it's too easy to have your whole military grouped in 1 single army/group/theatre so you don't have to spend officers for those additional HQ's.

You would be missing quite many bonuses though, so I think that would balance it.

 

[Ciaphas Cain]

ollobrains: I am pretty sure that there isn't any national technologies.

But it could be part of their prefered doctrine path.

 

[Baneslave]

But it could be part of their prefered doctrine path.

Everyone could still research it later, as there isn't locked doctrine trees anymore.

 

[e_quality]

the Soviets almost completely dispensed with Corps HQs, and had armies of 4-12 divisions attached directly to Army HQ.

Ever so slightly OT, but weren't USSR army units IRL small enough so as to more or less resemble, for example, an American corps in size?

 

[Raptor1]

Ever so slightly OT, but weren't USSR army units IRL small enough so as to more or less resemble, for example, an American corps in size?

I think their so-called Tank armies were the size of a Corps (And their Tank Corps were the size of a division). But their Rifle armies were generally the size (Or slightly smaller) as normal armies.

 

[Paul_M]

The manual says a maximum of 5 land units may be attached to a HQ.

No limit seems to exist for air units and naval units are not an issue.

What is unclear is if a Corps is a "land unit" but if it is not then you can only have 5 units smaller than a corps (division or brigade sized) attached to a single HQ. But even if a Corps counts it still allows you a goodly amount of flexibility in the command structure. But we will all find out how this goes in a few hours.

It isn't clear if there is any advantage to attaching a brigade to a HQ directly especially if that brigade is a support brigade. Except if the HQ gets sucked into the combat as a reserve then maybe the directly attached brigades also show up with it in combat. I have to admit this is something I don't follow and it will require waiting till the demo is out to see how it works in game.