I think we might be approaching what possibly will become the truth - and i could live with that.
HQs, Command Structure and OOBs
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Well, it would be easy for Podcat or someone on the Hoi4 dev team to chime in here with a "guys, HOI4 will feature a command hierarchy that involves corps, armies, and army groups -- it won't be identical to HOI3 and will be streamlined, but it is in there" --
Would be great to get that kind of official reassurance ...
Would be great to get that kind of official reassurance ...
I don't think we're hearing it because they initially planned on no CoC. Maybe they've changed their minds.
Generally, HQs in the field were the targets of air attacks as occurred a number of times in Normandy that shredded HQs and
their staffs. IF leaders are not immortal perhaps we should see that effect as well. If 200 Typhoons work over your HQ you
might see a 'small decrease' in its ability to command. (of course having corps assets taking hits and in the case of AAA fighting
back..sorry, had to add that...). Also the ability to cut off and capture HQs and leaders such as in Stalingrad. If you enjoy air
superiority then they can't fly out.
their staffs. IF leaders are not immortal perhaps we should see that effect as well. If 200 Typhoons work over your HQ you
might see a 'small decrease' in its ability to command. (of course having corps assets taking hits and in the case of AAA fighting
back..sorry, had to add that...). Also the ability to cut off and capture HQs and leaders such as in Stalingrad. If you enjoy air
superiority then they can't fly out.
Back on the first page:
Since they are not ready for a DD yet, they most likely still working it out.
Since they are not ready for a DD yet, they most likely still working it out.
If the command structure has been removed, that's a huge step backward, and will confirm the fears that "streamlining" is indeed a developer buzz word for "dumbing down". Command structure was one of the major advances of HoI3 over previous versions in the franchise. I'm convinced it is possible to improve on it, and indeed make it more user friendly, but gutting it would be a terrible decision.
Or maybe they are hoping that our relatively short attention spans will be distracted by another thread on the map or counters.
I think there is a pretty strong concensus here that almost all would like to keep some form of multi-tiered command structure, even if it is a much simpler implementation than HOI3. The differences in opinion are mainly in the details.
plasticpanzers,
I really like the idea of corps assets. I not sure that the development team has a good way with the game engine they are using to have corps assets other than some sort of independent brigade (which would just be another division).
I really like the idea of corps assets. I not sure that the development team has a good way with the game engine they are using to have corps assets other than some sort of independent brigade (which would just be another division).
As I mentioned I don't expect to see them in the game. PI has it already planned out long ago. Just would be nice to see support units
that are not front line units. If they were front line troops imagine the ramp of an LST at Omaha beach opening and a US 240mm howitzer
barrel sticking out and firing blowing a hole thru the cliff. Then the shock of the firing shoots the LST back out into the ocean or slams thru
the rear of the LST splashing into the water. Visualization is fun! (too many cartoons when I was a kid...)
that are not front line units. If they were front line troops imagine the ramp of an LST at Omaha beach opening and a US 240mm howitzer
barrel sticking out and firing blowing a hole thru the cliff. Then the shock of the firing shoots the LST back out into the ocean or slams thru
the rear of the LST splashing into the water. Visualization is fun! (too many cartoons when I was a kid...)
Actually I thought I put forth a pretty good description of how corps assets could be done without very much alteration of the existing system. This even presumed that the only HQs were off map. I don't recall if it was somewhere in this thread or one of the handful of others to discuss the topic.
If you guys recall the early days of HOI3, the AI didn't create a chain of command. It instead lumped all it's divisions into the theater command, aside from the starting OOB. I think getting the AI to both create effective hierarchies and then use them effectively is even still a big problem in TFH.
I imagine this was taken into account quite early in the HOI4 planning stage. The evidence of no chain of command, for me, is the division command limits we see that leaders have. Which is very HOI 1 and 2 like. With a divisional command limit for all ranks (seen in the demo video as: 5, 10, 25 for Mj. Gen, Lt. Gen, Gen, respectively) it is reasonable to assume that there are no HQ units to be commanded by generals at any tiers. Combined with the lack of divisional commanders, combined with what we've seen in the demo, I'm inclined to believe the CoC was cut in the planning stage. Perhaps they are now considering their options for a simpler CoC for HOI4.
I imagine this was taken into account quite early in the HOI4 planning stage. The evidence of no chain of command, for me, is the division command limits we see that leaders have. Which is very HOI 1 and 2 like. With a divisional command limit for all ranks (seen in the demo video as: 5, 10, 25 for Mj. Gen, Lt. Gen, Gen, respectively) it is reasonable to assume that there are no HQ units to be commanded by generals at any tiers. Combined with the lack of divisional commanders, combined with what we've seen in the demo, I'm inclined to believe the CoC was cut in the planning stage. Perhaps they are now considering their options for a simpler CoC for HOI4.
Well to adapt the current COC into Theatre provides target; Army Group supplies replacements, food, supply; Army supplies basic
attack orders; Corps (leaders plus assets) conduct attacks. This way the higher you go the more 'Army Politica' HQs become in being
distanced from combat.
attack orders; Corps (leaders plus assets) conduct attacks. This way the higher you go the more 'Army Politica' HQs become in being
distanced from combat.
That sounds pretty nice to me and would not absolutely require anything to be directly represented on the map. One minor concern from Bullfrog's mockup of what it might look like in the existing interface would be a way to tell if some divisions were too far from their command structure. I don't mean too far in HOI3 terms, but rather something where if I sent two divisions to NA, I can easily see them in the interface so they are easy to assign to a different corps in the correct theater.
I think Corps (if they have assets..cough) and the other HQs should be on the map for the player owner ONLY. That way you can see your
TOE but your enemy cannot unless airsearch or intel shows them and then they could be attacked from the air. It was always helpful to see your TOE in HOI3 for me and to make sure units were in their proper areas of operation. Taking them off the map would make that much harder. The initial showing video for Poland was quite zoomed out so it gave no real idea what they would look like more zoomed in as most players usually play.
TOE but your enemy cannot unless airsearch or intel shows them and then they could be attacked from the air. It was always helpful to see your TOE in HOI3 for me and to make sure units were in their proper areas of operation. Taking them off the map would make that much harder. The initial showing video for Poland was quite zoomed out so it gave no real idea what they would look like more zoomed in as most players usually play.
For any who have been following this thread:
Podcat just answered a laundry list of questions under the thread titled RPS Preview. One of those questions was about this topic. He did not directly answer the question, but the way he didn't answer it tells us a lot, in my opinion. I would say it is good news, but without details.
Podcat just answered a laundry list of questions under the thread titled RPS Preview. One of those questions was about this topic. He did not directly answer the question, but the way he didn't answer it tells us a lot, in my opinion. I would say it is good news, but without details.
Agreed. A "yes" (even with a qualification) was needed. Something like "Yes, there will be, but we are changing the way this will work and will explain in a future DD" And then in the DD he could have explained something like how the hierarchy would be dealt with off-map.
But this means it is a "No and I need to do alot of PR to try to contain the cries of outrage from all of the HOI3 fans who stuck with the game over the last few years, who thought this was one of the most successful parts of the changes that were introduced."
In the RPS review:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/08/20/hearts-of-iron-iv-war-strategy/
I worry that Paradox are listening to this: "I fear the micromanagement"
But without the "micromanagement" of arranging your OOB etc. what do you do during the first few years?
But this means it is a "No and I need to do alot of PR to try to contain the cries of outrage from all of the HOI3 fans who stuck with the game over the last few years, who thought this was one of the most successful parts of the changes that were introduced."
In the RPS review:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2014/08/20/hearts-of-iron-iv-war-strategy/
I worry that Paradox are listening to this: "I fear the micromanagement"
But without the "micromanagement" of arranging your OOB etc. what do you do during the first few years?
The question is more of "will there be only as single commander for any given division in structure?".
The hirarchy where General has 25 divisions under command, which are organised into 5 divisions commanded by 5 Mj. Generals can be a possibility as well.