How would you feel if attrition partially affected armies with food?

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Jiben

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When i saw a proper supply/food mechanic for 1.3 i was really happy and i still think it's a great addition to this game but i must admit it feels wrong to never really worry about attrition. Aslong as my armies have food no attrition will befall them even if i march them through the harshest desert the roughest terrain or the most extreme climate. I really think attrition is something that should happen in this game and not something that just happens if you screw up and get too few donkeys.

So i would be for lets say 10% of attrition still going through even when a army is supplied to show that yes sickness/deserters/deaths still happened even if the army was well supplied. Thoughts?

(exactly 10% is not the important part that could be tweaked from everything from 1-25 to find out what feels good/realistic)
 
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Samitte

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When i saw a proper supply/food mechanic for 1.3 i was really happy and i still think it's a great addition to this game but i must admit it feels wrong to never really worry about attrition. Aslong as my armies have food no attrition will befall them even if i march them through the harshest desert the roughest terrain or the most extreme climate. I really think attrition is something that should happen in this game and not something that just happens if you screw up and get too few donkeys.

So i would be for lets say 10% of attrition still going through even when a army is supplied to show that yes sickness/deserters/deaths still happened even if the army was well supplied. Thoughts?

(exactly 10% is not the important part that could be tweaked from everything from 1-25 to find out what feels good/realistic)

Mountains, Marshes, Desert, Harsh Winters, Mountain Passes, and Jungles should all be sources of attrition as well. Especially without roads being present. But yeah, a bit more attrition would be nice.
 
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IsaacCAT

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When i saw a proper supply/food mechanic for 1.3 i was really happy and i still think it's a great addition to this game but i must admit it feels wrong to never really worry about attrition. Aslong as my armies have food no attrition will befall them even if i march them through the harshest desert the roughest terrain or the most extreme climate. I really think attrition is something that should happen in this game and not something that just happens if you screw up and get too few donkeys.

So i would be for lets say 10% of attrition still going through even when a army is supplied to show that yes sickness/deserters/deaths still happened even if the army was well supplied. Thoughts?

(exactly 10% is not the important part that could be tweaked from everything from 1-25 to find out what feels good/realistic)
Agree, as I have said on other threads, service years should replace soldiers every ten years, that is 1/120 soldier replaced from the manpower pool every month or 0.83% attrition.

Terrain like @Samitte says could amount for some more attrition.

But then, food supply should be affected by seasons. Food production = supply limit shall be 0.5 or less in winter, making famine the most important contributor to attrition. No matter how many donkeys, big armies marching through winter shall lose their food supplies.

I will post a suggestion based on this next monday.
 
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tului

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Maybe once quantum computers on the desktop get here we can combine the POPs of Vicky, the character play of CK and the combat and logistics of HOI all in one game with no lag.

Jokes aside, I do think some bit of natural attrition should occur everywhere based on size of the army(cholera and dysentery or whatever else) and then some additional based on the terrain/climate and season.
 
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Backstab

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A percentage attrition is still going to end up as a massive number during a single war, especially when you consider long sieges on many forts and they will still be there. If attrition was to be made a thing, I would prefer if your soldiers fought worse if they had to live off the donkey food. So if you e.g. have less than half the food you'd get some morale reduction and to remove it you'd have to restock the troops and basically let them rest.
 

Limyx826

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I think that attrition should be apply to all armies with or without food. When the army have food maybe the attrition is halved or reduced to minimal level so that some damage can be done on the army but minor. While when army ran out of food, normal attrition is applied so the army will constantly suffer from attrition.

How much is the attrition will be depends on balance.
 

Herennius

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Mountains, Marshes, Desert, Harsh Winters, Mountain Passes, and Jungles should all be sources of attrition as well. Especially without roads being present. But yeah, a bit more attrition would be nice.

Yes, a small monthly % of attrition - increased for "extra harsh" conditions you mention - should be in (and supply shouldn't make immune against it). I would add sieging and military drilling as increasing factors. For me this represents things like accidents (from training, traveling, hinting...), diseases and other medical conditions (suicide, drub abuse), encounters with wild animals/local bandits when foraging, deadly quarrels between soldiers (and following disciplinary capital punishment) and soldiers deserting.
 
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nikkythegreat

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Happier but I prefer that 2 different attritions would work independently of each other.

1. For food and supply capacity. It works the same way now. Meaning food goes down if your army is in a territory that has lower capacity than your army weight and your army suffering 5% attrition when you run out of food.

2. This is based on terrain attrition hits you regardless of food capacity dependent on terrain and weather of the are like pre 1.3.

Heres an example:

Lets say an army that still has food is sitting in desert territory. So it suffers 1% attrition monthly due to being a desert terrain. But when that army runs out of food it suffers a total of 6% monthly attrition due to 5% from running out of food and 1% from desert terrain.
 
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Marcus Pica

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Agree, as I have said on other threads, service years should replace soldiers every ten years, that is 1/120 soldier replaced from the manpower pool every month or 0.83% attrition.
Dont you all forget about this! IsaacCAT is correct, retiring soldiers are the basic form of attrition at about 1%, and then all other forms of attrition.
 
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Iosue Yu

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Desertions should happen when morale is low, when people hate their ruler, or when soldiers are really living through rough time. But we just don't have any desertion in the game.

Sickness should be applied to mostly swamps and forests. I think we may need some researches on what environments contributed to mass army sickness. Also when you have a lot of dead bodies piled up, you'd get mass sickness. But none of these are in the game.

Soldiers being lost out of no reason may contribute to them actually being killed or having lost footing in some such when they are foraging. So the scenario that if you are carrying food it eliminates this kind of attrition is correct. Only that the Donkeys are carrying too much food and the armies really aren't foraging. And when they are foraging, they are losing too many men. You won't lose 5% a month due to foraging. It's such a dramatic number.
 
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Iosue Yu

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Desertions should happen when morale is low, when people hate their ruler, or when soldiers are really living through rough time. But we just don't have any desertion in the game.

Sickness should be applied to mostly swamps and forests. I think we may need some researches on what environments contributed to mass army sickness. Also when you have a lot of dead bodies piled up, you'd get mass sickness. But none of these are in the game.

Soldiers being lost out of no reason may contribute to them actually being killed or having lost footing in some such when they are foraging. So the scenario that if you are carrying food it eliminates this kind of attrition is correct. Only that the Donkeys are carrying too much food and the armies really aren't foraging. And when they are foraging, they are losing too many men. You won't lose 5% a month due to foraging. It's such a dramatic number.
Based on this, I'm proposing these changes
  1. 1% Attrition when army is broken, or when morale is lower than 1.00 threshold. Choose 1 but not both
  2. 1% Attrition for every 10 points of Stability below 50%
  3. 1% Attrition for every 10 points of Legitimacy below 90 for Monarchies
  4. 1% Attrition for every 5 points of Senate Approval below 50 for Republics
  5. 1% Attrition for every disloyal Clan Chief for Tribes
  6. 2% Attrition when army is in a non-familiar swamp, and 1% in non-familiar forest
    1. Familiar means - local dominant Culture is an integrated Culture, or owned by the country
  7. Keep a count of dead bodies. Fades by 100 each month. Each 1000 dead bodies give 1% local attrition and hinders local Pop Growth.
  8. Lower Donkey upkeep by 90%. Lower food carried by Donkeys so that they carry more or less just twice amount of food to regular soldier units
  9. No Attrition due to food when you have stored food
  10. 0.5% Attrition when you need to forage
  11. You're allowed to "Seize grain" when you've captured the provincial capital but you're never allowed to use directly their food
    1. And therefore occupied territories don't remove the need for foraging.
  12. Directly use food of your nearest port territory when stationed in a port where there's a naval connection
 
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IsaacCAT

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  1. 1% Attrition for every 10 points of Stability below 50%
  2. 1% Attrition for every 10 points of Legitimacy below 90 for Monarchies
  3. 1% Attrition for every 5 points of Senate Approval below 50 for Republics
  4. 1% Attrition for every disloyal Clan Chief for Tribes
Political discontent should not cause atrrition IMHO. Soldiers will have an increased chance to become loyal to their general but not become deserters for this reason.
 
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Todie

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I have no strong opinion on adding back baseline attrition [a lower one!] ], or retirement-simulating manpower decay.

However, I think the implementation of food supply constitutes a missed opportunity for dynamic considerations regarding logistics and supply.

Look at crusader kings 3 - it doesn't even have a food system, but still armies have supply, and the impact of an army's supply is not binary 0/100 but dynamic and gradual, the lower the supply, the more harsh penalties apply.

The provincial food System in IR has some of this, as the benefits of stored food scales in relation to how many years worth of consumption a province has.

armies could have the inverse, when going under a certain point, the armies or involved cohorts could get debuffs to combat ability , speed and rate of reinforcement and moral recovery, as well as start taking attrition gradually when only having a few months worth of food left and trending downwards.
 
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I think a slight attrition for very harsh terrain could be fun and sounds realistic. I'm not sure about anyone else but one of the reasons I don't play EU4 so much is the attrition and micro associated with properly managing it. The carnage for really large stacks strikes me as absurd.

As for retirement, disease, etc...based on the size of an army? Sounds realistic. Would help those who like mercs, tall play, and vassals while generally hurting wide play and those who prefer large standing armies.
 

Todie

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Yeah, the food aystwm combined with ability to automate army AI ia key to my apreciation of IR conpared to other GSG. It makes me comparatively unafrais of large scale warfare — its not nearly as much of a chore to manage those in this game, as long as you set things up with mindful strategic considerations.

On a side note, i bet it would be helpful to have distinct modifiers regarding attrition and food consumption. In 1.5, different unit types consume and carry different amounts of food, but iirc there are no modifiers for this. Instead, attrition and army food consumption are treated as one and the same.
 
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Iosue Yu

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Political discontent should not cause atrrition IMHO. Soldiers will have an increased chance to become loyal to their general but not become deserters for this reason.
Political discontent makes it so soldiers are more likely to desert. Armies in the Antiquity had to send soldiers out for foraging and buliding stuff. They didn't all stay in camps and took head counts every day. So there were a whole lot of opportunies to run away.

Political discontent means the soldier would feel the war was meaningless. So why not settle down in a nice farm, get a local wife and start a new life?
 

Bovrick

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Political discontent makes it so soldiers are more likely to desert. Armies in the Antiquity had to send soldiers out for foraging and buliding stuff. They didn't all stay in camps and took head counts every day. So there were a whole lot of opportunies to run away.

Political discontent means the soldier would feel the war was meaningless. So why not settle down in a nice farm, get a local wife and start a new life?
I feel like Stability is the natural conduit for that if it were to be introduced, but I definitely wouldnt want it compounded with Legitimacy/Approval etc, they already feed into one another.
 

IsaacCAT

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Political discontent makes it so soldiers are more likely to desert. Armies in the Antiquity had to send soldiers out for foraging and buliding stuff. They didn't all stay in camps and took head counts every day. So there were a whole lot of opportunies to run away.

Political discontent means the soldier would feel the war was meaningless. So why not settle down in a nice farm, get a local wife and start a new life?
Because they are your citizens and have a purpose defending the country. They are not loyal to the current leader but will follow their general.

Deserters would want to abandon ship if they lose trust of their comander. How to simulate that? Well today I was able to lose three times with the same general and army. An event like a muttinity could describe better deserters than attrition, IMHO.
 

IsaacCAT

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Yeah, the food aystwm combined with ability to automate army AI ia key to my apreciation of IR conpared to other GSG. It makes me comparatively unafrais of large scale warfare — its not nearly as much of a chore to manage those in this game, as long as you set things up with mindful strategic considerations.

On a side note, i bet it would be helpful to have distinct modifiers regarding attrition and food consumption. In 1.5, different unit types consume and carry different amounts of food, but iirc there are no modifiers for this. Instead, attrition and army food consumption are treated as one and the same.
As it is described in the imperator wiki, attrition is capped at 5%, it already takes into account terrain types and only kills soldiers when food is exhausted.

I think the attrition system and food is quite valid as it is. However, I would decrease supply limit making it variable to simulate the seasonal scarecity of food, increasing use of supplies in winter and in other seasons but summer.

 
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