How would you feel about subjects being able to form other nations?

[AvengedK1ng]

TO and Brandenburg can actually form Prussia already, but that's due to historical reasons. Any other Prussia-capable country needs to be independent..

Swear its only teutons not brandenburg

 

[AvengedK1ng]

You said you disagree historically, so I'm asking if there are any examples of vassals forming impressive new entities.



As I said, there are a few "low tier" formables for flavors sake, like Montenegro getting to form Serbia or german minors forming Saxony. But in practice, almost every formable nation in EU 4 (inspired by real history) is a flat out buff. Almost every formable has superior national ideas than the nations who can form it by design, more missions and often a better government form.

Montenegro can form Serbia? I thought none of the slavic balkan tags were formable sans dalmatia?
Pomerania, westphalia, and hannover are other examples of weak formables

 

[cuendillar]

Doesn't forming a new nation, based upon the requirements needed, mean that you dominate your homeland region? A country that isn't independent doesn't really have sole control of any land in an undisputed way - the overlord can for example seize provinces at will from them.

Besides, it'd be pretty weird to be able to grow your vassal big enough to form a nation and then integrate them and form the same nation yourself.

 

[JangoBunBun]

It should vary by tag. Prussia can be formed by a subject, but some other nations should be as well. Ireland is the first that comes to mind.

 

[PöpØ]

Imagine you play France. Would you let your PU Burgundy form Lotharingia?
Clearly I wouldn't.

IMO, it’s ok to let a subject form a regional tag like Tuscany or Dalmatia, but not a big nation-state like Germany or Japan.

 

[necro84]

Swear its only teutons not brandenburg

There are two separate decisions for subjects forming Prussia - one for TO and one for Brandenburg. The rest of the nations need to be independent


@PöpØ as a player I would like that.
As king of France at that time I wouldn't like my vassal becoming stronger but if I was king of both countries I wouldn't see the problem, more titles mean more prestige. Just look at the full title of one of the Spanish kings "By the Grace of God, King of Castile, of León, of Aragon, of the Two Sicilies, of Jerusalem, of Hungary, of Dalmatia, of Croatia, of Navarre, of Granada, of Toledo, of Valencia, of Galicia, of Mallorca, of Seville, of Sardinia, of Córdoba, of Corsica, of Murcia, of Jaén, of the Algarves, of Algeciras, of the Canary Islands, of the East and West Indies, of the Islands and Mainland of the Ocean Sea; Archduke of Austria; Duke of Burgundy, of Brabant, of Milan, of Athens and Neopatria; Count of Habsburg, of Flanders, of Tyrol, of Barcelona, of Roussillon, and of Cerdanya; Marquess of Oristano and Count of Goceano."

 

[AvengedK1ng]

There are two separate decisions for subjects forming Prussia - one for TO and one for Brandenburg. The rest of the nations need to be independent

Yeah checked my bad, think a thread threw me off

@PöpØ as a player I would like that.
As king of France at that time I wouldn't like my vassal becoming stronger but if I was king of both countries I wouldn't see the problem, more titles mean more prestige. Just look at the full title of one of the Spanish kings "By the Grace of God, King of Castile, of León, of Aragon, of the Two Sicilies, of Jerusalem, of Hungary, of Dalmatia, of Croatia, of Navarre, of Granada, of Toledo, of Valencia, of Galicia, of Mallorca, of Seville, of Sardinia, of Córdoba, of Corsica, of Murcia, of Jaén, of the Algarves, of Algeciras, of the Canary Islands, of the East and West Indies, of the Islands and Mainland of the Ocean Sea; Archduke of Austria; Duke of Burgundy, of Brabant, of Milan, of Athens and Neopatria; Count of Habsburg, of Flanders, of Tyrol, of Barcelona, of Roussillon, and of Cerdanya; Marquess of Oristano and Count of Goceano."

But its eu4 not ck so you don't get prestige for all the titles. Hungary and Croatia are also dumb claims seeing as his brother had the crown not him

 

[Guibou]

I'd like that feature. I often find myself having an irish vassal controling the north sea or an italian one controling trade node i dont care about. Having them stay their minor self even at 300+ dev is quite sad.

I really dont understand people that say they dont want it and NO ONE should have it too while theirs plenty of ways for them to avoid this to happen. To be implemented with the mechanic must come one of these :

• new rule on game start (like for the form any nation you want)
• Subject interaction to allow/stop formation of new tags (like for colonist)
• Have the decision be on the major partner list and not the subject's.

Everyone happy, everyone get what they want.

 

[cuendillar]

Yeah checked my bad, think a thread threw me off

But its eu4 not ck so you don't get prestige for all the titles. Hungary and Croatia are also dumb claims seeing as his brother had the crown not him

Not the dumbest claims around. Among my personal highlights are Idi Amin calling himself King of Scotland and Spain's current king Felipe VI still has the right to use 'King of Jerusalem' among his titles.

 

[Nostalgium]

Hungary and Croatia are also dumb claims seeing as his brother had the crown not him

Plenty of dumb claims in Europe - see the English claiming they were Kings of France until 1801.

 

[themrspartan]

I usually force them to do it via console commands, so yeah. Especially Ireland.

I think it makes sense with some formables (say, Ireland, German regional tags, maybe even the Netherlands) but not so much with larger nations like Germany or Russia. Where to draw the line? Maybe tags that are intended to represent "cultural unions" (Germany for Germanic cultures, Russia for East Slavic, Italy for Latin, etc.) could be forbidden to form if they are a subject.

Just make Empire tags non-formable by vassals, ez.

 

[Astalic]

There is prussia who can be formed by a vassal.
I would like to see ireland too, because i like to vasalise an irish minor and give him ireland when i play France.

Though i agree that empire rank tag must be free to be formed.

 

[MrSnert]

I would love it. I am often frustrated by my vassals not being able to form their formables, particularly the German regionals, Dalmatia for Ragusa, Ireland and the Italian regionals (2sid, Sard-Pied, Tuscany).
I certainly agree that no major tags should be allowed, so no Lotharingia, GB, France, Spain, Germany, Italy or Russia, although I don’t think it being OP is much of an argument when the only nation that is currently allowed to be formed by subjects is Prussia.
Missions giving large amounts of claims could simply be locked with a ‘is an independent nation‘ requirement, but internal missions are a lot of fun to do for subjects (like doing the one that gives Croatia a CoT in Zagreb as Hungary).

 

[AvengedK1ng]

I would love it. I am often frustrated by my vassals not being able to form their formables, particularly the German regionals, Dalmatia for Ragusa, Ireland and the Italian regionals (2sid, Sard-Pied, Tuscany).
I certainly agree that no major tags should be allowed, so no Lotharingia, GB, France, Spain, Germany, Italy or Russia, although I don’t think it being OP is much of an argument when the only nation that is currently allowed to be formed by subjects is Prussia.
Missions giving large amounts of claims could simply be locked with a ‘is an independent nation‘ requirement, but internal missions are a lot of fun to do for subjects (like doing the one that gives Croatia a CoT in Zagreb as Hungary).

If you change every mission to 'is independent' then a pued tag can't complete its missions anymore which sounds terrible

 

[Bandua_of_Gallaecia]

I always wished my vassal was able to form Ireland instead of remaining the island of Tyrone.

 

[necro84]

If you change every mission to 'is independent' then a pued tag can't complete its missions anymore which sounds terrible

now we have terrible situation - some nations can complete their missions as subjects - Portugal, France, Aragon, Byzantium. Some nations like Lithuania, Hungary, Bohemia, Milan, Naples can't

 

[MrSnert]

If you change every mission to 'is independent' then a pued tag can't complete its missions anymore which sounds terrible

That’s already the case for the most common PU‘s: Hungary, Naples, Milan etc. I’m merely saying that any worries that subjects being allowed to form countries would be too OP because of mass perma-claims for example is easily remedied by such conditions, which, whether you like it or not, are already applied in the game.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

now we have terrible situation - some nations can complete their missions as subjects - Portugal, France, Aragon, Byzantium. Some nations like Lithuania, Hungary, Bohemia, Milan, Naples can't

Those mission trees are built around their independent side, not being loyal vassals

 

[please add multithreading]

I'd like that feature. I often find myself having an irish vassal controling the north sea or an italian one controling trade node i dont care about. Having them stay their minor self even at 300+ dev is quite sad.

I really dont understand people that say they dont want it and NO ONE should have it too while theirs plenty of ways for them to avoid this to happen. To be implemented with the mechanic must come one of these :

• new rule on game start (like for the form any nation you want)
• Subject interaction to allow/stop formation of new tags (like for colonist)
• Have the decision be on the major partner list and not the subject's.

Everyone happy, everyone get what they want.

New rule would change literally nothing since if it blocks achievenemts when turned on you essentially wasted dev time on something a modder could do.

 

[AvengedK1ng]

New rule would change literally nothing since if it blocks achievenemts when turned on you essentially wasted dev time on something a modder could do.

This tbh