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Uncle_Uzi

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Personally I think the Russians would need their own full game to cover, perhaps Eugen will do what Creative Assembly is doing with Warhammer, and that is dividing the conflict into three separate titles. Obviously it shouldn't be too tough to make an Italian Front and possibly a North African expansion for Normandy 44, considering most of the player assets for both theaters are already modeled.

So my question is: How would you make the Eastern Front unique enough of a game to warrant it's own release? What about the Pacific?

The war with Japan should be unique enough to stand apart from the other wars depicted. Amphibious assaults should be a key feature, and of course the Japanese morale system needs to be accurate in relation to Americans. Perhaps Japanese infantry have double stress tolerance at the cost of not being able to fall back?

I find it very exciting to think about the potential here, and the full game isn't even out yet! Anyone else agree?

How would you make new theaters exciting and fresh aside from new armies and scenery?
 

MarcoRossolini

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Eastern Front fan here. Not such a fan of every second thread being about it though. :(

For Eastern Front it needs to be zeroed in to a specific time. 41-45 just won't work.

The unfortunate thing is that a big dynamic on the Eastern Front are that whilst the Germans are at a tactical advantage for much of the fighting, they're screwed strategically. If their heavy armour arrives then things go well, if they've struck mines, caught fire or broken down on the way (the Panthers at Kursk lost a ridiculous number of vehicles to breakdowns before they even arrived. Plus their crews were inexperienced and they'd only got off the train from Germany the day before) the front then they lose. How do you fit that into a game? Then there are also the issues of inadequate German intelligence in key battles of the Eastern Front (Kursk is a classic, where they don't realise there's a massive muddy ravine in front of the advance of one of their units that results in hours of delay and Soviet artillery observers zeroing in on their position). And this is just the start.

I say this a lot, but mid-late '42 would be the best option imo.

The armoured forces are balanced. There is a variety of battles (Blue, Stalingrad, Uranus, Mars) and there aren't any Tigers to mess balance up. Plus, a 10v10 map of Stalingrad would be the height of awesome. After playing Colombelles with the 91. for a long time I am confident that SD can do city fighting very well. Unfortunately though it appears ruined buildings can't be moved through like they could before. I think that is unfortunate given the infantry can basically go anywhere on a modern battlefield.

Other options would include 41-42 Moscow, if you wanted to see weather conditions (deep snow etc) added and to have the dynamic of veteran Germans in inferior armour against regular Soviets in superior armour.

Kursk is a no go. Largely flat rolling hills, open land would make it a spam fest. To balance the wide open sight lines the Soviets would have to receive overwhelming armour. It'd be a nightmare to balance and the Germans would likely end up constantly under attack by artillery and air power to balance their armour's superiority. Doesn't sound like much fun to me.

Bagration is a widely popular option. I'm not sold because I think everyone would find fighting in swamps and marshes not too much fun. That said, the variety and range of units for the Red Army could be awesome (Engineer Sappers anyone?) Lake Balaton could be good as well for when all the heavy armour of both sides goes head to head.

A wild card option could be the battle of Brody. Early war fighting, lots of tanks for both sides, huge variety of units. (T-26s, T-28s, BT-7s, T-35s (if the devs felt charitable) vs Pz.35Ts, Pz.38Ts, Panzers I,II,III,IV, StuGs...)

My concern is that the developers will go for a stereotyped Red Army and not what it actually was - a huge army with a vast variety of units. Unfortunately many games (Company of Heroes 2 and Flames of War are prime examples) go for a stereotype of the Red Army as this mass of human wave assaults. This is simply not true. Some units were incompetently led, others (the classic example is the 62nd Army) were competent, highly motivated and led very competently. Even during Barbarossa there was one unit that advanced into German occupied Poland on the 22nd of June. (Its commander would be taken into custody by the NKVD and was only released when his unit demanded that he return to lead them).

The Eastern Front is a subject that gets a large number of games that never do the thing justice. Please get it right Eugen if you do it. :p
 

frout

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Obviously it shouldn't be too tough to make an Italian Front and possibly a North African expansion for Normandy 44, considering most of the player assets for both theaters are already modeled.
North Africa Campaign lasted from 1940 to 1943 and involved French Vichy and Italian Armies. So I don't think that most of the assets have already been 3D modelled in SDN 44.
The same for the Syria Lebanon Campaign (1941) and the battle of France (1940).
And the Italian Campaign begun in July 1943.

In short, while having the Pacific Theatre and the Eastern Front in game would be great, I really hope Eugen devs will also focus on the early stage of WWII (1940-1943) in France / North Africa / Syria-Lebanon settings and their specific armaments, making standalone(s) about it. That'd be uncommon and interesting.
 

Adribenzema

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I would see a italia front or africa campaign in addition for this game,and for next game eastern front a pacific will playable with this game in MP whit eras restitction system symiliar at total warhammer 1 and 2 of crestive assembly working

Thanks,sorry my english
 

FatRefrigerator

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The biggest problem with SD and its future is the IRISzoom engine. They've been using it for a while and they're good at making games with it, but it's now just holding them back from making a game that isn't a replica of Wargame.
 

Uncle_Uzi

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I really like IRIS zoom personally, and I think they are doing an excellent job of improving it witg every release. I don't see why they should go about making a new engine when most players are just hungry for content.

To bring Creative Assembly up again, I think we'll be seeing something similar happen with Steel Division. In Total War Warhammer, you have a very competent base game with excellent content, but it is never enough for the playerbase. Each DLC sold like crazy, because there was always a fan that didn't get his specific unit he really wanted, so the possibility existed to churn out DLC at a rapid pace, because it would sell.

I think Eugen can pull off the same strategy with Steel Division. There will always be fans begging for specific factions that will buy them in an instant if given the chance.

I just hope they are capable of making unique content quickly enough for a good turnover. Good DLC plans should be profitable.
 

FatRefrigerator

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I really like IRIS zoom personally, and I think they are doing an excellent job of improving it witg every release. I don't see why they should go about making a new engine when most players are just hungry for content.

To bring Creative Assembly up again, I think we'll be seeing something similar happen with Steel Division. In Total War Warhammer, you have a very competent base game with excellent content, but it is never enough for the playerbase. Each DLC sold like crazy, because there was always a fan that didn't get his specific unit he really wanted, so the possibility existed to churn out DLC at a rapid pace, because it would sell.

I think Eugen can pull off the same strategy with Steel Division. There will always be fans begging for specific factions that will buy them in an instant if given the chance.

I just hope they are capable of making unique content quickly enough for a good turnover. Good DLC plans should be profitable.

Don't get me wrong, I love IRISzoom too. People just need to understand that the engine has quite a few limitations and we aren't going to get a lot of the features that have been getting requested since WG: EE.
 

FatRefrigerator

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Elevation and weather? Or which features do you mean?

Like infantry being able to entrench, being able to create your own plane loadouts, having infantry squads lose firepower as soldiers die, etc. The Wargame series had elevation changes, but it was awful because LOS would get all screwy.
 

TGApples

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Like infantry being able to entrench, being able to create your own plane loadouts, having infantry squads lose firepower as soldiers die, etc. The Wargame series had elevation changes, but it was awful because LOS would get all screwy.
LoS was always correct. It worked alright with the "stepped" hills. It was only really broken in RD. The problem is that it's very to make it intuative for the player without some sort of graphics overlay. The LoS tool we have helps, but you need to be able to get most of the information at a glance, not by poking around with tools.

I'm sure the engine can be upgraded to allow entrenchment and plane loadouts. It's just not clear those features are useful. I'm also sure it could be used to make infantry more realistic, I just think you need to treat it as an abstraction.

Engine limiations aren't unfixable, it's just whether it's worth the effort to fix them.
 

FatRefrigerator

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LoS was always correct. It worked alright with the "stepped" hills. It was only really broken in RD. The problem is that it's very to make it intuative for the player without some sort of graphics overlay. The LoS tool we have helps, but you need to be able to get most of the information at a glance, not by poking around with tools.

I'm sure the engine can be upgraded to allow entrenchment and plane loadouts. It's just not clear those features are useful. I'm also sure it could be used to make infantry more realistic, I just think you need to treat it as an abstraction.

Engine limiations aren't unfixable, it's just whether it's worth the effort to fix them.

For a game dev, it's always worth it to improve your engine and your game...if you care enough and if you are able