IIRC, the Khazars existed within the timeframe of the game. Will they get their own religion (Judaism) or will it be simplified into something else?
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Maybe, but they lost their power and wealth, and where replaced by barbarans from the steps. The Kievans destroyed the peaceful Khazars, only to let the wild Polorgariests(sp.?) in.
I wish they where in the game, they where a facenating state.
I wish they where in the game, they where a facenating state.
The Khazars were gone several decades before the start of the game. Probably not enough left to make their region interesting...
After the fall of the Khazar Empire, the Khazars (Jews) fled to the west to establish the powerful commercial areas around Russia, Ukraine, and Poland. Most of the Jews who lived there (up until the time of WW2) could probably trace their heritage back to the days of the Khazars. They would face many difficulties, such as Ivan IV's attempt to exterminate the Jews in Russia, but they would go on to dominate the commerce of the whole region of Eastern Europe for a long time. So, it is not that they all died when Astrakhan fell--they just fled, resettled, and prospered.
The question is then how religion will be modelled. If it is something like EU2 with only a majority showing I guess they will be a no-show but there should be some promise if otherwise.
Did I understand your point that Jews in Eastern Europe are actually Khazars correctly? Can you provide any evidence?
Kharars fell almost a century prior to the beginning of the game. It would make more sense to have steppe peoples like Polovets or Pechenegs.
Originally posted by webbrave
Some might be, but I am unsure of how much is myth and how much is history.
The hypothesis that Russian Jews are descended from Khazars should be treated as just that - a hypothesis, rather than fact.
Check out Khazaria for more on the Khazars (though quite a "maximalist" site).
The Khazar empire wre dealt their deathblow in 965 IIRC and were then gradually assimilated by other steppe cultures (e.g Petjenegs, Kumans, Bulgars) and the Slavic pricipalities.
IMHO many of the minority of Khazars who practised Judaism would have converted to Islam or Christianity.
Too bad the game doesn´t begin at the death of Charlemagne - I would have loved to play the Khazars!!!
Cheers,
Vandelay
Check out Khazaria for more on the Khazars (though quite a "maximalist" site).
The Khazar empire wre dealt their deathblow in 965 IIRC and were then gradually assimilated by other steppe cultures (e.g Petjenegs, Kumans, Bulgars) and the Slavic pricipalities.
IMHO many of the minority of Khazars who practised Judaism would have converted to Islam or Christianity.
Too bad the game doesn´t begin at the death of Charlemagne - I would have loved to play the Khazars!!!
Cheers,
Vandelay
But according to this page (linked from Khazaria page linked to above), Khazaria existed until 1083...
The 1083 site is board gamer´s site, but still what it says is that a portion of the Khazar realm survived the Kievan onslaught of 965 all the way to c. 1030 AD.
Even so, erring on the side of caution (i.e. no Khazaria in CK) is probably for the best. I guess the modders will take care of the Khazars anyway
Cheers,
Vandelay
Even so, erring on the side of caution (i.e. no Khazaria in CK) is probably for the best. I guess the modders will take care of the Khazars anyway
Cheers,
Vandelay
It´s nothing personal - Big Karl is no enmey of mine
Beginning the game in 1066 pretty much leaves us blind as to the societal structure of large areas of Europe, notably Scandinavia. Going even further back in time we lack sources even more, which is why I think Pardox decided to push the gamestart year forward to 1066.
Once, way back in the mists of time, when Paradox polled the board members for their interest in other games based on the EUII-engine I think they set the starting date for their medieval game at the coronation of Otto I of the Holy-Roman Empire (mid 900´s IIRC) - accurately portraying Scandinavia and Central Europe at this time would be hell.
Cheers,
Vandelay
A remnant of the Khazars did continue to exist until the early 11th century, but they were a very minor state and had ceased to exist (as far as we know) several decades before the 1066 start date of CK...
As it was in the cronicles,
in 1079-1083 khazars of Tmutarakan /formerly Tamatarka/ supported Prince Wsevolod Jaroslavich in his struggle against Oleg Svyatoslavich.
in 1111 city of Sarkel/Belaya Weja (White Tower) was an outpost for the Russian Dukes` crusade against kumans.
in 1117 habitants of Sarkel were evaquated to Russia.
So, I think, game developers can make provinces of Tmutarakan and Sarkel with 'judaism' as province religion.
in 1079-1083 khazars of Tmutarakan /formerly Tamatarka/ supported Prince Wsevolod Jaroslavich in his struggle against Oleg Svyatoslavich.
in 1111 city of Sarkel/Belaya Weja (White Tower) was an outpost for the Russian Dukes` crusade against kumans.
in 1117 habitants of Sarkel were evaquated to Russia.
So, I think, game developers can make provinces of Tmutarakan and Sarkel with 'judaism' as province religion.
Tmutarakan was already a Russian city by 1066 - it may have had some Khazar population, but by that point it was probably mainly Russian.