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Forced labour in the colonies was basically a tax. It was not slavery in any but the most "lunatic right" sense of the term.

The miners were recruited by conscription through the local chiefs - a system that lent itself to abuse and was abused. But it was in principle "free labour" identical to the way in which US capitalists recruited unskilled Europeans "off the boat".

But teaching the natives to work hard was one of the many high-minded tasks the Europeans set out to do in Africa - just like eradicating war, slavery, cannibalism, disease etc etc.
 

Grosshaus

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Of course the situation in Africa shifted through time and was different in other provinces. In the absence of money to pay taxes work was a widely used method to pay them.

Still one of the most popular methods was to buy work from a local chieftain, who had always had the right to command his subjects quite autocraticly. Europeans didn't buy slaves, instead they bought work from 1000 men for a year. Nobody cared if the natives were taken to work by gunpoint, all their pay went to their chieftain and a big portion died of diseases. True, work wasn't always a pleasure in Europe or America at the time, but there the people chose themselves were to work, got paid (if only minimal) and could quit without being shot.

My point is that there were rare occasions where slavery was abandoned instantly, like via an event. Instead it was a gradual project which progressed considerably less hastily in colonies than in Europe.
 

unmerged(8390)

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I could be even more annoying and ask exactly how different the standard company store/sweatshop environments of most industrialized nations really differed from slavery anyways ;-)

I think perhaps what is needed is a slider which reflects "forced" or coerced labor in general vs. Workers rights/Organized labor. There is no question that Labor VS. Industry should be a major issue in this period - and linked to major unrest potential.

By combining it into one slider, you don't have to try and address the issues of outright slavery, indentured servitude, forced labor, sweatshops and company stores individually - as they are all related and clearly part of the same spectrum.

This way, in the case of the US for example, you wouldn't have to worry about regional differances and could simulate any special circumstances with events.
 

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I actually find the Stars and Bars extremlly offensive, while I'm not offended by the Confederate Battle Flag. The Stars and Bars explictly represents the Confederate Constitution which bluntly states that slavery will exist in the Confedracy in perpertuity and the Balck Man is inheritly inferior to the White Man. And of course it represents treason. The Southern Cross on the other hand represents the men fighting in the Confederate Armed Forces, most of whom were (especially the white poor who were in majority) simply fighting to stop invading Northern armies. I simply ignore the modern day racist yahoos who choose to use the Southern Cross to represent them. Thus I find the Stars and Bars despicable, while I find the Southern Cross noble in it's own way. If other's don't feel that way I'm fine with that, you can think what you want to, that's what America is about.
 
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Don't you find that a little contradictory though Tim? I mean, the South spent most of the war on the offensive. That flag doesn't represent men fighting to protect their land. It represents men fighting for the South. If the Stars and Bars are that offensive to you, I don't understand how the flag flown by those who fought to preserve those values you despise can be any less hateful to you.
 

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The South did not spend most of the war on the offensive all but two battles were fought in the south and the two battles fought in the north were brought about to end the war and keep the Yankess out of the South not to keep the Southeners in the North.

THe Confederate battle flag is equivlant to the battle flags that marked the Corps of the army of the Potomac. http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/union.htm

They represent armies, not ideals, as do the Stars and Stripes and the Stars and Bars.
 

unmerged(11874)

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I didn't mention it, but if I have to make a choice, I would want the Confederate battle flag too. No lofty reasons, just I like the look better; reminds me of the Union Jack in form if not in function.

Here's a question: why do the Stars and Bars have only three bars? If they're ripping off the U.S. flag, shouldn't they have four? Four for each original colony to join the Confederacy, that is (Georgia, SC, NC, and Virginia)? Is it just for looks, then?

Also, this just occurred to me... I wonder what kind of safeguards Victoria'll have to keep you from just occupying the South with a half-million men in 1859?
 

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Originally posted by Timothy Ortiz
The South did not spend most of the war on the offensive all but two battles were fought in the south and the two battles fought in the north were brought about to end the war and keep the Yankess out of the South not to keep the Southeners in the North.

THe Confederate battle flag is equivlant to the battle flags that marked the Corps of the army of the Potomac. http://members.tripod.com/~txscv/union.htm

They represent armies, not ideals, as do the Stars and Stripes and the Stars and Bars.

My understanding:

Most of the battles were fought in the South or in the border states. The only major battle in a "free" state was Gettysburg.

However, many of the battles, even the owns fought in the Deep South, were Southern attacks. The Seven Days, Shiloh, Second Bull Run, Chancelorsville and Atlanta all featured Confederate forces on the attack. Admitedly some of these attacks were on advancing Union forces, but the Southern forces did most of the actual assaulting.

Having said that, the South was on the strategic defensive most of the war, and that, IMO, is the most important consideration.
 

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Originally posted by Timothy Ortiz
I actually find the Stars and Bars extremlly offensive, while I'm not offended by the Confederate Battle Flag. The Stars and Bars explictly represents the Confederate Constitution which bluntly states that slavery will exist in the Confedracy in perpertuity and the Balck Man is inheritly inferior to the White Man. And of course it represents treason. The Southern Cross on the other hand represents the men fighting in the Confederate Armed Forces, most of whom were (especially the white poor who were in majority) simply fighting to stop invading Northern armies. I simply ignore the modern day racist yahoos who choose to use the Southern Cross to represent them. Thus I find the Stars and Bars despicable, while I find the Southern Cross noble in it's own way. If other's don't feel that way I'm fine with that, you can think what you want to, that's what America is about.

Ah yes, the Confederate constitution. Fun stuff.

http://www.law.ou.edu/hist/csa.constitution.html

From Section IX

First the good:

1) The importation of negroes of the African race from any foreign country other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same.

2) Congress shall also have power to prohibit the introduction of slaves from any State not a member of, or Territory not belonging to, this Confederacy.

Until I read that, I never knew it banned importing new slaves.

The bad:

4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.

So the only way to outlaw slavery would be to amend the constitution - which is exactly what the US ended up doing.
 

Tim O

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Until I read that, I never knew it banned importing new slaves.


This was because certain deep south states had a monopoly in iinterstate slave trafficing and they didn't want African competition.
 

Dark Knight

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Paradox will be using historical flags for this game. We don't need a discussion about whether a particular flag is "offensive"; any flag could be found offensive by someone. At least this game shouldn't include the flags of any terrorist organisations.
 

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Originally posted by Dark Knight
Paradox will be using historical flags for this game. We don't need a discussion about whether a particular flag is "offensive"; any flag could be found offensive by someone. At least this game shouldn't include the flags of any terrorist organisations.

Fair enough, and I agree completely. Still wonder if the Confederate flag will be the Stars & Bars or the Battle flag.

I vote battle flag!
 

FINALmasa

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Here's an idea...

If the game will use sliders (or something similar), make a slider for taxation of slaves. Provinces will have their own percentages of slaves. Support of free labor will reduce income and resources, but keep their badboy level down with abolitionists. Supporting slave labor will increase income and resources, while increasing your badboy level with countries that have heavy or extreme taxes on slavery. Once the slavery percentage of a province hits 0, there will be a minimal or no chance of them having slaves again.

I think it makes perfect sense on a simplistic level.
 

Willard

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Tim---Until I read that, I never knew it banned importing new slaves.

The US Government banned the importation of slaves in the early 1800s (I believe it was under President Jefferson).

The CSA was doing nothing "unique" in that regard.

The "slave state/free state" political discussion regarding the admittance of new states to the union, in addition to the original 13, had nothing to do with the importation of slaves.

It had everything to do with the idea that "states rights" superceded that of the federal government. Slavery was the primary precipitating factor in the political discussion----the new "slave" or "free" states were courted by the North or South to increase political power in Congress. It was important to the South that a balance be struck amongst the admission of "slave" or "free" states for the purpose of balancing the US Senate. Since the North had such a great advantage in population and hence representatives in the House of Representatives, the only way the South could achieve political parity was in the Senate. This is the reason for so many "compromises" of the time in conjunction with the admittance of new states to the Union.

This argument was a mere continuation of two larger problems.

First, the original government of the US was not based on the US Constitution, but the "Articles of Confederation." (note--Articles of Confederation...Confederate States of America---this is not a coincidence). The AoC government was a loose confederation of all the states with a very weak federal government...to stem the fear of a strong central authority ala the King of England. Additionally, many of the states were hesitent to give up their sovereignty to the federal government. This system did not work and it was scrapped for the US Constitution. The US Constitution provided for a "stronger" federal presence over the states and essentially established a roadmap for the increased dominance of the federal government over the state government.

Despite the many compromises in the original US Constitution (see the articles dealing with the counting of slaves in the population for representative purposes in the House and the treatment of slaves as property), you still had two differant sides with two very different views. The North, with its pre-industrial society was in favor of a strong federal government and the South, with its the slave based agrarian society, was in favor of a strong state government.

The mistake many people make is that they try to explain away the "slave issue" and say it is merely a "states rights" issue. This brings me to problem number two. As far back as 1776, Thomas Jefferson tried to free the slaves in the Declaration of Independence (probably more out of an understanding of the economic problems of slavery as opposed to any human rights issues). However his attempt was thwarted by the Continental Congress---the Southern Colonies would sign no such declaration freeing the slaves. Therefore the North and South colonies decided to throw that clause out and sign the declaration...essentially the decision was made to put off the slavery question until a later date. Already in 1776 the lines were drawn over the slave issue, and by extension the issue of federal control and state sovereignty. When the AoC experiment failed and a stronger federal authority established, the writing was on the wall for the South...the slavery issue would have to be dealt with. What the North and South did, was draw the process out for over 50 years in compromise after compromise.

After 50 years of compromise it became impossible to differentiate the issues of "states rights" and "slavery" as many revisionist attempts of history attempt to do so today. Back then, the key buzzword was "states rights" echoed by the Calhouns of the South. Well what else were they going to say??? I just cant see John Calhoun say that the South needed to protect its right to "keep slaves." That argument would be too repugnant to discuss outright---therefore, "states rights" became the phrase of holy war in the South. The South's source of economic power was based upon the slavery system. In order to protect this source of power, it HAD to promote and if necessary, by force of arms, protect a strong soveriegn state system from federal power. The idea of "states rights" was a means to an end...the end of course being the protection of the economic well being of the south in the form of slavery. Additionally, "states rights" became a big stick the South could use in its ongoing power struggle with the North...and power begets more power.

Of course the stupid thing about all this is that with the increased industrialization of the south, the economic need for slaves would have dissappeared over time---why feed and house 50 slaves when you can use new machines that will do the work faster and better??? Unfortunately the South was too shortsighted to see the future and instead of welcoming it, felt the need to fight to preserve an archaic society. The South fell into a trap..."states rights" had been the rallying cry for so long, that the South failed to recognize that it had outlived its usefullness and that preservation of an idea just to preserve it, was foolish.
 

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They could see the future and were afraid. They had so wrapped their culutre around slavery and the subjugation of the black man that anything else was unthinkable. If industrialization had spread to the south, what would have happened to all those slaves? To free them would be unthinkable. To put them at work in the factories would taken jobs away from whites. To keep their culture agrarian and slave based they had to break away from the influence of the industrial North.
 

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Originally posted by Willard
After 50 years of compromise it became impossible to differentiate the issues of "states rights" and "slavery" as many revisionist attempts of history attempt to do so today. Back then, the key buzzword was "states rights" echoed by the Calhouns of the South. Well what else were they going to say??? I just cant see John Calhoun say that the South needed to protect its right to "keep slaves." That argument would be too repugnant to discuss outright---therefore, "states rights" became the phrase of holy war in the South.

You realize we are discussing the mid 19th century and not the 1990s, right? How would arguing the South had the right to keep slaves be automatically repugnant to a Southener (or many Northeners) in the 1850s? I think it is likelier many would find it more repugnant to suggest that one, blacks were equal with whites and two, the Federal government should be able to deprive slave-holding Southeners of their property without compensation.

It may make sense to think, oh states rights were just a code pre-civil war to defend slavery, but from my reading, when most Southeners wanted to defend slavery, they defended it. States rights helped provide a legal basis for this defense, thanks to the tenth admendment to the Constiution, but the slavery was generally not seen as immoral in the South prior to the civil war.
 

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They did say those things outright, indeed they argued that slavery was a positive good for the black man. You should read Arguing About Slavery: John Quincy Adams and the Great Battle in the United States Congress.
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MacGregor

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Good post Willard. Except the Declaration of Indepence was not meant to set up a government and thus have the force of law, thus Jefferson did not try to "free the slaves" with it. But he did originally include some anti-slavery language which was deleted because of the concerns you expressed. First class job.
 

unmerged(5664)

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Originally posted by FINALmasa
Here's an idea...

If the game will use sliders (or something similar), make a slider for taxation of slaves. Provinces will have their own percentages of slaves. Support of free labor will reduce income and resources, but keep their badboy level down with abolitionists. Supporting slave labor will increase income and resources, while increasing your badboy level with countries that have heavy or extreme taxes on slavery. Once the slavery percentage of a province hits 0, there will be a minimal or no chance of them having slaves again.

I think it makes perfect sense on a simplistic level.

But no country ever taxed slavery out of existence...