How will historical borders be possible with no province annexation?

[ringhloth]

It's just really weird to not be able to take just one side of the Oder or Rhine. I don't need to be able to take specific provinces, but states should conform at least a small amount to rivers as important as the Oder or Rhine. I mean, Czechoslovakia has "historical" borders set up, so there are already concessions to future historical borders in states. Even Romania doesn't have Dobruja as able to be annexed by the Bulgarians in war.

 

[HQ4L]

Maybe some people missunderstood me:

I have myself a neutral stand to this decision and are only curious about game/map design decisions in general (thx @podcat for the answer). That there was no plan for the possibility of the historical partition of germany I didnt know; I always thought the game was designed to achieve all historical outcomes as a possibility. But thanks for the clarification. Actually I dont know any "more clever" solution to avoid that province/state dilemma without making provinces like in HoI3.

But I think in future DLCs and mods to HoI4 we will come back to this question because I think the actual solution is definitely not the best one

 

[CocoBZ]

Spoiler

Devs, please fix the typos in Muntenia and Moldova. (Also the border between the two.)

Spoiler

 

[TheDecider]

Devs, please fix the typos in Muntenia and Moldova. (Also the border between the two.)

Spoiler

Like this?

Spoiler

 

[Thure]

Please no... it was bad enough in Victoria 2... I want to occupy provinces... not whole states. I have a claim on Neuchatel as Prussia? No... I have to conquere whole western Switzerland. That was nonsense.

 

[CocoBZ]

Like this?

Spoiler

Yeah, more or less.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Actually I don't like only two regions in switzerland, there are at least three regions for an hypotethical partition of the country, for example from Italy, France and Germany.

Is strange that a country should annex this tall piece of switzerland, like a border of a colonial country, when there are cultural and historical borders within the country that can be used.

1) For example a core germanic switzerland in the north.
2) Geneva+Vaud+Wallis on the west and south west.
3) Ticino+Grisons on the south east.

 

[the_legion]

Isn't redrawing the borders of Europe exactly as you like it the actual point in playing Grand Strategy games?
I always disliked the Vicky type of peace deals. I want to take Euphen from Belgium not something like whole "Eastern Belgium",
I want Memel from Lithuania, not whole Lithuania etc. etc.

Peace deals are the reward-moments in the game. If you take the satisfaction of beautiful (or historic plausible) borders out of it,
you ruin the fun.

 

[Thure]

Isn't redrawing the borders of Europe exactly as you like it the actual point in playing Grand Strategy games?
I always disliked the Vicky type of peace deals. I want to take Euphen from Belgium not something like whole "Eastern Belgium",
I want Memel from Lithuania, not whole Lithuania etc. etc.

Peace deals are the reward-moments in the game. If you take the satisfaction of beautiful (or historic plausible) borders out of it,
you ruin the fun.

I would like to give you 100 agrees. This is the one thing that destroys the whole Victoria II game for me...

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Also Veneto seems another critical place, because seems that whole Istria is part of it, but if Jugoslavia or Croatia are claiming Istria there is not reason to take whole Veneto, the only part of Istria that was conserved by Italy is Gorizia and Triste

I'm also curious about Corsica, I hope is a separate region and not a part of provence like happened in Victoria, if Italy wanted the island, for some strange reason they need to take also Marseille.

 

[CocoBZ]

Isn't redrawing the borders of Europe exactly as you like it the actual point in playing Grand Strategy games?
I always disliked the Vicky type of peace deals. I want to take Euphen from Belgium not something like whole "Eastern Belgium",
I want Memel from Lithuania, not whole Lithuania etc. etc.

Peace deals are the reward-moments in the game. If you take the satisfaction of beautiful (or historic plausible) borders out of it,
you ruin the fun.

Unfortunately, in HOI 4 the provinces themselves are all drawn at random and don't show a shred of accuracy. The only thing following history is the state borders. I don't understand why, when there are previous titles with proper maps.

 

[Kovax]

I guess Hungary won't get its pre-WWI borders back either. In HOI3, the only wargoals were to either take the narrow strip that was given them by Germany, or else take all of Czechoslovakia, although the option existed to take all of Czechoslovakia EXCEPT for the disputed area. Now it will be interesting to see how they draw the line, but there will be no way that it can match the historical claim.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

In a peace treaty the Italian-Jugoslavian border should be a very sensitive point, that enormous veneto made is a very problematic international debate.

 

[aruon]

Unfortunately, in HOI 4 the provinces themselves are all drawn at random and don't show a shred of accuracy. The only thing following history is the state borders. I don't understand why, when there are previous titles with proper maps.

gameplay reasons. just to name one of the more prominent reasons- river crossings are generally hard to be sure of without selecting the province. while this is a minor inconveniance it's toatlly acceptable for CK2 and EU4 since they have less provinces, this can be a real nuisance in a HOI game that has 1000s of provinces in a small area. so they reworked provinces to usually end at rivers.

 

[potski]

I guess Hungary won't get its pre-WWI borders back either. ... there will be no way that it can match the historical claim.

No way? If it was possible in HOI3, then it is possible in HOI4.

Unfortunately, in HOI 4 the provinces themselves are all drawn at random and don't show a shred of accuracy. The only thing following history is the state borders. I don't understand why, when there are previous titles with proper maps.

Because states are the administrative areas, with populations, factories and infrastructure. Provinces are there only for combat / movement of your forces, and the location of ports.

The Peace Conferences include a list of the states of the defeated nation, for the victors to decide what to do with them. How would this be even for Yugoslavia, never mind a big country, with every province listed? It would be a total showstopper in MP games where every player is paused, not just those taking part in the Conference, while someone starts getting all OCD over certain provinces.

 

[Heatth]

Isn't redrawing the borders of Europe exactly as you like it the actual point in playing Grand Strategy games?

No province based game allow to perfect redrawing of borders. Provinces lines static in these games, this is not news to HOI4 or any other Paradox game.

One think important to note is that the "provinces" in HOI4 are not the equivalent of provinces in EU4 or even Victoria 2. They are just small tactical divisions that allow troops to move in with a bit more accuracy. They only represent the tactical aspect of the territory. The equivalent to other games "provinces" are actually the 'states'. These are the political divisions that actually represent more than just the physical land. All the actual strategic representation happens on that level.

That being said, I do feel HOI4 states are too big. There are too few of them per country. I feel like it would be best to divide some of them, to allow finner post war division.

 

[Dunbal]

Game. It's not possible to model the map to model (insert your neighborhood here) completely accurately. Paradox would need to hire cartographers and devote a lot of memory and graphical resources to making an accurate map and it would not affect gameplay one bit. The rule for making a game is: IS IT FUN? The historically accurate position of a border doesn't affect fun that much, and if this completely ruins the game for you then I expect you're pretty used to disappointment in life anyway.

 

[Thure]

Game. It's not possible to model the map to model (insert your neighborhood here) completely accurately. Paradox would need to hire cartographers and devote a lot of memory and graphical resources to making an accurate map and it would not affect gameplay one bit. The rule for making a game is: IS IT FUN? The historically accurate position of a border doesn't affect fun that much, and if this completely ruins the game for you then I expect you're pretty used to disappointment in life anyway.

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...r-darkest-hour-1000s-of-new-provinces.620449/

It's possible. Without hireing cartographers. It's a lot of work for one person, yes. But it's not impossible. Or look at my map mod for CK2. I love making maps and it's not super expensive and I don't need cartographers, just maps which can be watched in the internet or a library. And it's one of the best maps for Darkest Hour. And really? Istria is in the Venetia state. This means I can't claim Istria as Yugoslavia, because I need to annex whole Venetia. That's not fun for me. Fun would be if I could redraw the borders of Europe. And I don't mean absurdly ahistorical.

 

[safe-keeper]

Isn't redrawing the borders of Europe exactly as you like it the actual point in playing Grand Strategy games?
I always disliked the Vicky type of peace deals. I want to take Euphen from Belgium not something like whole "Eastern Belgium",
I want Memel from Lithuania, not whole Lithuania etc. etc.

Peace deals are the reward-moments in the game. If you take the satisfaction of beautiful (or historic plausible) borders out of it,
you ruin the fun.

At least you're thinking like a true imperialist.

Diplomat: this proposal will redistribute the land so that all affected ethnic groups will be happy ^_^ .
the_legion: but the borderline is so ugly! I can't bear to look at this! Where's my ruler?

 

[CocoBZ]

Game. It's not possible to model the map to model (insert your neighborhood here) completely accurately. Paradox would need to hire cartographers and devote a lot of memory and graphical resources to making an accurate map and it would not affect gameplay one bit. The rule for making a game is: IS IT FUN? The historically accurate position of a border doesn't affect fun that much, and if this completely ruins the game for you then I expect you're pretty used to disappointment in life anyway.

Darkest Hour had an accurate, detailed map. Victoria 2 had an accurate, detailed map. That-One-Cold-War-Game-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named had an accurate, detailed map. They had where to take inspiration from, but they didn't, so we're stuck with only area-level accuracy, when nothing prevented province-level accuracy before.