How unrealistic is minor manpower in HOI3?

[Secret Master]

Since the game doesn't model the manpower expansion that went into industry during the period, if you want to make IC cost manpower, then you have to re-work the entire manpower availability data to account for worker manpower and worker manpower additions. Thus, MP streams would be *increased* in the majors, since all of them expanded their workforce and industry during the war.

Isn't that what industrial and economic laws model? Also, don't certain decisions with IC buffs model various efficiencies states found in using their industrial manpower more effectively? Also, don't the industrial techs model increased efficiency of both workers and industrial processes? Hell, you wanna turn the Soviets into the #2 economy in the world, you build 100 base IC, but you also research the IC techs using construction practicals. A Soviet Union with up to date IC techs is pretty damn scary. The only reason they can't catch the USA is because the USA has such a large head start on the Soviets.

I'm talking about strictly building additional IC. If I build a new factory, someone has to work there. If I expand an old factory, more people have to work there. If my existing workers get more efficient, that's an IC tech (increased IC percent added to base IC). If my industrial processes get better, that's a different IC tech (reduction in IC/days). If I mobilize the economy for war, that's economic laws. If I gear my industry from consumer goods to weapons, that's a conversion from CGO to Heavy Industry or Mixed Industry.

 

[DaveyDave]

Isn't that what industrial and economic laws model? Also, don't certain decisions with IC buffs model various efficiencies states found in using their industrial manpower more effectively? Also, don't the industrial techs model increased efficiency of both workers and industrial processes? Hell, you wanna turn the Soviets into the #2 economy in the world, you build 100 base IC, but you also research the IC techs using construction practicals. A Soviet Union with up to date IC techs is pretty damn scary. The only reason they can't catch the USA is because the USA has such a large head start on the Soviets.

I'm talking about strictly building additional IC. If I build a new factory, someone has to work there. If I expand an old factory, more people have to work there. If my existing workers get more efficient, that's an IC tech (increased IC percent added to base IC). If my industrial processes get better, that's a different IC tech (reduction in IC/days). If I mobilize the economy for war, that's economic laws. If I gear my industry from consumer goods to weapons, that's a conversion from CGO to Heavy Industry or Mixed Industry.

1. read the edit to my previous post. US workforce 1936 to 1945 did NOT increase in size.

2. Massive expansions in military-industrial output are achieved by conversion of output from civilian to military. Game approaches this abstractly, but nowhere near realistically. But the end result is that a major can increase military output about 10 fold with laws changes and economy type changes. This is generally accurate.

3. Simply relying on IC efficiency increases as they presently exist in the game would not simulate or capture what happened historically. These tech increases take half a year to gain a few percentage points of IC output plus IC efficiency (less time to produce same thing). The ramp up of production in the majors happened in 12 to 18 months. Now, if you could change the VALUES for IC output and efficiency so that instead of going from 10% bonus to 12% bonus you went from 10% bonus to a 50% bonus, then you would have something. Another way to do this would be to have a production slider - "industrial expansion" representing the investment of output into increasing the industrial base. But that is essentially what "building ic" does.

 

[DaveyDave]

Wow, how long will it take for the sex spam to get taken down? :glare:

 

[shierholzer]

If I build a new factory, someone has to work there. If I expand an old factory, more people have to work there.

No. Just because you build a factory it doesn't mean you recruit workers. Factories can perfectly exists without anyone working there, however they wouldn't produce anything in this case. AS solves this via strategic effects:
With low idle manpower you get hefty penalties on your IC, simulating that your factories have too few workers. With high idle manpower you get bonuses for having more workers than usual.

 

[DaveyDave]

No. Just because you build a factory it doesn't mean you recruit workers. Factories can perfectly exists without anyone working there, however they wouldn't produce anything in this case. AS solves this via strategic effects:
With low idle manpower you get hefty penalties on your IC, simulating that your factories have too few workers. With high idle manpower you get bonuses for having more workers than usual.

I like this as a very simple solution. As long as the bonuses and penalties maxed out around 10%.

What is AS?

 

[DaveyDave]

Jeez this spammer is outrageous. Dude, we get it okay : you don't need to post 45 effing times. Sides, porn is about as exciting these days as a brand new black and white portable TV!

 

[shierholzer]

I like this as a very simple solution. As long as the bonuses and penalties maxed out around 10%.

Why should they max out? Yes, AS also reworked the MP distribution, but no guys not in the military means your factories produce nothing.

 

[DaveyDave]

Dude what is AS, I don't get it.

 

[shierholzer]

Dude what is AS, I don't get it.

Ah, OK.
August Storm, one of the major mods around.

 

[DaveyDave]

this dude is posting faster than I can edit my ignore list. where's a demi mod when you need one.

 

[Lothos]

1. read the edit to my previous post. US workforce 1936 to 1945 did NOT increase in size.

I am sorry but this is an incorrect statement and not possible.

http://www.multpl.com/united-states-population/table

From 1936 to 1945 the population rose by 11 million. You can't convince me that the workforce stayed the same the entire time. Sorry but your opinion is incorrect.

 

[shierholzer]

From 1936 to 1945 the population rose by 11 million. You can't convince me that the workforce stayed the same the entire time. Sorry but your opinion is incorrect.

Actually we're talking of earlier years (1918 onwards). However the yank population rose also in that time.

 

[21oliver]

You also cannot model a game based on history and not include certain aspects of history because it offends people. Germany doesnt need additional MP for their Industry, because they used forced labor, they need additional Military Units to guard the forced labor, big difference if we are going to be trying to match history. People like to say how much Germany lost out on because they didnt make their women work, they didnt need to, the women were replaced by forced labor.

The problem here is that i would have abstracted everything and not given us (the players) things to dispute. I never would have said that MP actually represents MP without adding some statement in regards to modifiers, I also wouldnt have stated how many men were in a brigade, so that when that doesnt match up later on we can call them on that as well. Paradox gives the appearence of the game in MP terms following historical lines, but it actually doesnt, so they open themselves up to all this controversy. If instead the game said;

1 unit of Manpower = Represents avialable able bodied men capable of working modified by a variety of circumstances including to but not limited to blah blah blah.
One Brigade costs 1 unit of Manpower etc...

If this was done there could be no accurate argument on our part that the data was incorrect or not modified correctly, as we wouldnt know exactly what was done. We may think the ultimate figures dont add up, but would have nothing to actually cross reference it on.

If your going to modify historical data in order to make your game more playable, thats understandable. Simply dont mislead people into thinking its otherwise.

MOst of us posters have been through this many times before, we know the game isnt historically accurate nor isnt likely to be so (regardless of your games outcome) unless you get one of those rare circumstances. Consider the game more sandbox then accurate and lets move on, its not going to change. When someone like the OP asks the question like here, a simple "The MP in game doesnt reflect history, and Minors have been nerfed to keep them as Minors" pretty much sums it up.

WW2 is the most complex time in gaming history, it is impossible to accurately model a game (other then manually) to accurately reflect the time period. No two countries were the same, you cant simply make a formula and plug everyone into it. People and companies do the best they can and we live with it.

Its been awhile since i checked, but if i recall correctly all the mods here have modified the games MP (tells you something) and these are some of the most respected posters here. And lastly for Paradox i dont believe any nation in modern history maintained standing armies they couldnt mobilize, so that part (Czechoslovakia and a few others) is pretty ridiculous, if you do nothing else, fix that please.

 

[DaveyDave]

I am sorry but this is an incorrect statement and not possible.

http://www.multpl.com/united-states-population/table

From 1936 to 1945 the population rose by 11 million. You can't convince me that the workforce stayed the same the entire time. Sorry but your opinion is incorrect.

Yeah, dude I didn't make it up. Look at the 1950 Statistical Abstract of the United states. There is a table in there that lists the size of the workforce not including the military, going back to the 1920s and up to 1949. The workforces in 1936 and 1945 were about the same size = 53 million. The workforce *including* the military however went up from about 54 million in 1936 to around 65 million in 1945.

Were not talking about raw population increases, were talking about total labor force size, which is where you get labor power, which is where you get industrial output. Apples and Oranges.

Edit : With this sort of stuff opinion is not really a sound basis for discussion. This is data. I have a JPEG of the actual table, but attachments aren't allowed in this forum. Lucky You. Table 209, Statistical Abstract of the United States, 1950, page 175. In the middle of the war, the workforce size was maxed out at 56 million. By 1945, the switch to non-military production resulted in workforce dislocation, probably accounting for the drop in the size from 56million in 1942 to 53million in 1945. It's something of a coincidence that the workforce sizes of 1936 and 1945 are practically identical.

 

[Lothos]

Yeah, dude I didn't make it up. Look at the 1950 Statistical Abstract of the United states. There is a table in there that lists the size of the workforce not including the military, going back to the 1920s and up to 1949. The workforces in 1936 and 1945 were about the same size = 53 million. The workforce *including* the military however went up from about 54 million in 1936 to around 65 million in 1945.

Were not talking about raw population increases, were talking about total labor force size, which is where you get labor power, which is where you get industrial output. Apples and Oranges.

Edit : With this sort of stuff opinion is not really a sound basis for discussion. This is data.

You can't count it that way raw numbers. Labor force is everything including some guy at 7 Eleven selling hot dogs. Labor force increaesd over that period of time. IC going to military production is also including for eample the retooling of detroit from making cars to making jeeps and tanks. That labor force did not go up but IC (in game basis) did. Sorry but you are squeing the facts to support your argument rather than taking the facts at their face value.

 

[DaveyDave]

You can't count it that way raw numbers. Labor force is everything including some guy at 7 Eleven selling hot dogs. Labor force increaesd over that period of time. IC going to military production is also including for eample the retooling of detroit from making cars to making jeeps and tanks. That labor force did not go up but IC (in game basis) did. Sorry but you are squeing the facts to support your argument rather than taking the facts at their face value.

Yeah, I know. Studied statistics. You can break it down a million ways, and in fact it is broken down into many categories that can be analyzed in data captured by the Commerce Department and the Bureau of Labor Statistics. I didn't say manufacturing workforce didn't go up, I said the total labor force didn't go up (or at least not very much), you said my opinion was wrong, I'm demonstrating that it's not an opinion.

Statistical Abstracts of the United States, 1900-1950, published by the Commerce Department.

IC going to military production is also including for eample the retooling of detroit from making cars to making jeeps and tanks. That labor force did not go up but IC (in game basis) did.

The manufacturing workforce size in fact doubled during the period, from about 8million to about 16million. But that wasn't my point. I was trying to account for the massive increase in output from 1941 to 1945. We have eliminated raw manpower additions to the labor force as the source. The source was : conversion of labor from producing one type of output to another, and efficiencies introduced into that production.

 

[DaveyDave]

Hence the increase in military-industrial output (total US gdp went from about 96 billion in 1936 to over 200 billion by 1945) was not accomplished by the addition of labor, but conversion of products and increased technological efficiencies. Virtually all manpower that could be spared from production was militarized.

This was what I said earlier, maybe you missed it.

 

[21oliver]

All this is sort of moot imo what needs to happen is for Paradox to get off the fence once and for all. Simply answer the following question;

Is HOI3 (incl xpacs) designed to be a historically accurate representation of the War and surrounding years including all combatants and non-combatants?

1) If the answer is yes, then they blew it and did a very bad job. 2)If the answer is no then we really have nothing to even discuss, cant complain about the game not being accurate if they dont profess it to be so. And all these threads that popped up can be easily closed by replying the "game is not designed to be historically accurate".

The problem is that they quasi try and get credit for the first and fudge the answers to the second. One crystal clear statement allowing for no interpretation presented to the consumers here will end much controversy.

And back to the economy. As i stated everything is not so simple, all nations arent the same, all govts arent the same. You simply cannot cookie cutter a template and put everyone into it. We understand that for game purposes this is done due to time, costs etc... but it will never be accurate. History has shown us that things dont always make sense. One nation may eat dirt and fight to the death and never rebel, another nation may give up at the first sign of trouble. Some nations have histories of being rebellious, others welcome invaders. What causes dissent in the US may not be the same as what causes dissent in Bulgaria. All nations Industries, Economies, Military and Political structures and bodies would have to be set up individually, specifically suited for the nation in question during the time period we are discussing. Now this isnt going to happen in a PC game, so its sort of ridiculous that we get in these debates. Just as its ridiculous with so many issues regarding nations MP, Industries, Economies etc.. that you barely recognize the war, that people will beg for things in future xpacs that will have little or no impact other then new eye candy.

The issue at hand was minors MP btw, everyone is caught up in the US. If your going to make a game playable, you want to nerf the Majors, not the Minors. Imagine an accurate protrayl of the Soviet MP pool????

Answer the one question Paradox and you can put alot of this to rest (or get more complaints...)...

 

[nimrod123]

this is the paradox mission statment with regards to realism according to johan

http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?33456-Sobering-Up&p=544849&viewfull=1#post544849

 

[DaveyDave]

Portugal conquering the world in TFH 4.02 is a bit absurd, no?