How to take over the US as Japan

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Grallak

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After having seen Daniel play as Japan and wage war on the US, I'd like some honest dedicated thoughts on how to take over the US before they have a chance to use their factories to tip the scales. While Daniel seems more interested in defending against an enemy who he can't beat by simply wearing out, the only alternative would be an invasion of the West coast and/or possibly past the suez canal, depending on resistance&time. If we say Daniel prepares an invasion and focuses on sending as many of his soldiers over to the west coast as soon as the war starts, what are his odds of defeating the US before they can mobilize? Since Daniel would have more manpower (thanks to China etc), better experience and infantry weapon, along with some light tanks and air crafts, he should be able to reach the east coast within a few months or atleast a year. Historically, Japan was tied down in china, and didn't really have the supplies or so to mount a full scale invasion of the US. But since in this timeline Daniel has freed up most of his men, and his oil production secured thanks to factories and the philiphiness, he should have a decent chance to hold onto the islands.

The only real problem I can see is how to transport all those troops to the west coast and maintaining supplies long enough for Daniel's troop to take the East coast before the US navy can move in to disrupt the supply lines around Hawaii. (There are not a whole lot of islands so it would be difficult to have many aircrafts, but maybe it's only a formality and can be changed?!?)

I am thinking that if you as a first step attack Pearl Harbor then rush Panama canal and the west coast before they have a chance to reinforce it, then the US will be forced go all around south America before they have a chance to attack you. That could slow their supplies, since they would have to send them much further and delay them the opportunity to strike your supply lines from Japan to the West coast. What is essential is that you maintain a constant flow of supplies and troops to the west coast as quickly as you can and then establish a presence in the mountains and near Mexico until you have enough troops to move further into the US mainlands. Since your troops will beat them, you will win as long as you keep naval supremacy. You must be able to keep that supremacy for atleast one year until your troops can take the east coast.

Now I know what a lot of you may be thinking. What the hell man? Already having taken the US and Japan in 1939-40? Yes, I know it might sound like a lot, but it may just aswell be in 1942 or 1945. The question is how fast can you do it? Since it is impossible to beat the US in a prolonged fight, the only alternative is to play fast and knock them out of the game before they have a chance to enter. I guess Daniel did take unnecessarily brisk preparations, and he could have tried to keep the world tension a bit lower, but essentially, you should never have to fight their navy in a serious confrontation before you have already beaten them, since you need to protect your convoys to America at all times.

Of course, if we say he makes more preparations and perhaps attack historically or in 1940, then he would have won the war in 1942 or 1943. Now if Germany thought the USSR, that would be about the time it takes from them to beat the SU, so I find it only fair. This would of course render Germany and Japan super strong powers already in 1943 and perhaps have kicked out the brits by 1944 1945, who knows. Perhaps then Japan and the Axis could have some showdown if they wanted, who knows, but it would be pretty cool, so don't get angry if I say the US HAS TO DIE within one year.

So opinions, thoughts, ideas.
 
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JerkyJerry

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VS the computer 99% success rate?
VS a human of similar skill & experience 1% success rate?
 
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Grallak

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VS the computer 99% success rate?
VS a human of similar skill & experience 1% success rate?
I am assuming the AI will try to choke of any naval invasion you might attempt since this is the only plausible way for you to achieve a real "Victory" over them, while building up until it feels safe enough to attack you. Again, we have no idea how the US AI will react. At any rate, it would be easier to program it to try and secure it's ports and potential allies while building up.

Even if a Human controls the US it might still not be able to do anything if Japan has already prepared to attack in 1939, but who knows, it was never really supposed to be a fair fight, and China wouldn't have fallen in 1938 historically.

I mean, considering how much you would get out of beating the US, you would basically be peerless in terms of military and industrial power, so it's fair to say that it wouldn't be easy. The game is afterall centered on you trying to create the SUPER FRIENDLY BFF Sphere, so if you take the US it would basically mean everything else is kind of obsolete since you would pretty much have everything you need to do whatever. I am not sure if Daniel is supposed to wear the US out (again, how?) or did just go whoop the fuck whatever ;) after naval combat I can go home, but I really want to know how I am supposed to play Japan. If my primary goals should be conquering Asia only to get screwed by a strong US or going for the US before they have a chance to retaliate. I feel at lose of what my priorities should be and how to achieve them, how many ships I need etc etc.
 
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Daddl

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I have no idea how it could work out in Hoi4, I can just tell you about Hoi3.

In Hoi3 on very hard difficulty, once the USA enters the war, they enact full mobilisation and have their 1500+ IC or more. They immediately start producing like 10 carriers + CAG and 30 tank divisions if not more. The carriers take 12-16 months, and thats the timeframe you have. You already killed china and built up for some years, and are hopefully at least in the midst of invading every single allied port from South Africa over Arabia and India to New Zealand. When the US enters, you got this year (but that is more than enough) to invade every single pacific island as well, and then you have to take Panama, San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Seattle. Now there is no allied port left in the whole Indian and Pacific ocean and you are fine, as the US can built as many carriers as they want if they can just use it in the Atlantic.

I once did hold the US west coast for a long time, but had invested too much in the navy and too little in land forces, so I couldn't just conquer all of the US and lost interest as it seemed like I could just win this with paratrooper abuse.

So in HoI3 you can defeat the US on sea with a bit of an improvement to your fleet, but lack the land forces to make a really satisfying invasion. Would have been possible with better planning for sure, but I personally didn't pull it off.

Seeing how Daniel didn't do any build-up or serious gameplay and just fast-forwarded for months I have hopes he really struggles to achieve anything against the Allies. Because if not, the AI is sadly not competent again.
 
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Grallak

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I have no idea how it could work out in Hoi4, I can just tell you about Hoi3.

In Hoi3 on very hard difficulty, once the USA enters the war, they enact full mobilisation and have their 1500+ IC or more. They immediately start producing like 10 carriers + CAG and 30 tank divisions if not more. The carriers take 12-16 months, and thats the timeframe you have. You already killed china and built up for some years, and are hopefully at least in the midst of invading every single allied port from South Africa over Arabia and India to New Zealand. When the US enters, you got this year (but that is more than enough) to invade every single pacific island as well, and then you have to take Panama, San Diego, San Francisco, Los Angeles and Seattle. Now there is no allied port left in the whole Indian and Pacific ocean and you are fine, as the US can built as many carriers as they want if they can just use it in the Atlantic.

I once did hold the US west coast for a long time, but had invested to much in the navy and too little in land forces, so I couldn't just conquer all of the US and lost interest then as it seemed like I could just win this with paratrooper abuse.

So in HoI3 you can defeat the US on sea with a bit of an improvement to your fleet, but lack the land forces to make a really satisfying invasion. Would have been possible with better planning for sure, but I personally didn't pull it off.

Seeing how Daniel didn't do any build-up or serious gameplay and just fast-forwarded for months I have hopes he really struggles to achieve anything against the Allies. Because if not, the AI is sadly not competent again.
This is why I am always scared of HOI3. I have no idea what I need. I know what my plans are, but I have no idea how close I am to implementing them and whether my troops and navy is lagging behind until I actually fight the enemy. I just wish I had more information and some general tips on what strategies to pursue and what forces to build depending on what I want to do.

I also think Panama canal should be next to impossible to take since it is of such high relevance. It is what connects the US to the pacific once it loses it's western coast. It should be just as well defended as the Suez Canal.
 
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FruitcakeFTW

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I definitely wouldn't start by invading the Philippines, like Daniel did in WWW, instead securing the resources in South East Asia first, maybe also Australia and the Raj. The 2 Rubber in the Philippines is just not worth drawing America's ire and losing the element of surprise over.
 

lekim

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It is simple:

  1. You start to prepare (IC, tech, fleet, airforce, ground forces)
  2. You conquer china
  3. Enter Axis
  4. You help germany to conquer ussr
  5. You help germany to conquer uk mainland - they might need your navy
  6. Now is the perl harbor time - use bored german panzer to do your land bidding in US
 
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Grallak

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I definitely wouldn't start by invading the Philippines, like Daniel did in WWW, instead securing the resources in South East Asia first, maybe also Australia and the Raj. The 2 Rubber in the Philippines is just not worth drawing America's ire and losing the element of surprise over.
Agreed, Philiphiness is not worth it, and frankly, it's the only thing the US really has in the pacific to begin with. If you manage to take India and all british, french and dutch colonies before that then you might not even have to bother with the US until much later and just focus on building factories.
 
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JerkyJerry

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I'm just going by my own gameplay. I learned long ago while playing my brother & friends in countless hours of Axis & Allies of them conquering Alaska, and then me having to waste time and energy on getting rid of them. They were like freakin fleas or a swarm of those little gnats pestering the jolly green giant! How dare they!
When I play America the first thing I do is defend against a potential Japanese invasion. But I'm also more of a defensive minded player anyway.

I know they have made great strides on improving the AI but if you're talking about attacking the US that early I would suspect most good players could pull that off? Maybe fewer in later years?
 

Grallak

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I'm just going by my own gameplay. I learned long ago while playing my brother & friends in countless hours of Axis & Allies of them conquering Alaska, and then me having to waste time and energy on getting rid of them. They were like freakin fleas or a swarm of those little gnats pestering the jolly green giant! How dare they!
When I play America the first thing I do is defend against a potential Japanese invasion. But I'm also more of a defensive minded player anyway.

I know they have made great strides on improving the AI but if you talking about attacking the US that early I would suspect most good players could pull that off? Maybe fewer in later years?
Do you have an actual strategy that isn't to closely alligned with HOI3? I think they have improved the game to make sure you can't just exploit the game to win. I am sure there will be people who can, but that will probably be fixed in upcoming patched some weeks after the game is released.
 

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Also, coming to think of it, you would also need to declare war on the UK because the Aussies would probably grant the US naval bases, so if you are planning on attack the US you should also be prepared to invade them to. This is why Daniel should wait, Stage a fascist coup in india to distract UK and then Seize the colonies straight of the beat when the war begins, not because the resources per see, but because you want to make sure they can't use any naval ports. Now it won't really matter that much since carriers will take 12-16 months for the AI to make, and then maybe a month or so to bring it to the battle, it might not even matter that much, but you should use it while you are sending troops to the West coast. The more airfields and ports you hold the longer you can keep the US navy from destroying your convoys and supply lines. If you manage to keep them around the cape of south america, then you might also be able to utilize your subs, but that's just a detail.

All in all, you need to have built up a strong navy, perhaps make some medium tanks and so to take out the americans tanks and to seize land faster. You need to make sure the UK is tied down in Europe while you are going after the US, and then basically secure whatever of the pacific that you can before you rush on to the US. If you beat the US, then you will get all their sweet IC and basically become a Super power that would be on par with Germany.
 

JerkyJerry

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Do you have an actual strategy that isn't to closely alligned with HOI3?

Well no and not sure that I could as I have not played 4 yet. And, I was just giving my opinion. I was under the impression that all opinions were welcomed here. But hey, I've been wrong before.
 
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Daddl

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I think the changes to production and unit training benefit the US greatly and strongly discourage an early invasion.

If I didn't miss anything, you just need the equipment to deploy units, they don't necessarily need to train. If you do so, they will only be greens and fight at -50% efficiency, but you can deploy them after one day if you like.

If US now just puts everything they have into tank or motorized production...efficiency will be low at the beginning of course, and the units will be worse than they could be, but if the US can just pop up some tank divisions from nowhere to slow you down and gets more and more and more with each day passing, I don't see how you can conquer the whole nation before you get overwhelmed by that, assuming your forces themselves are not optimal either if its too early. You would have to attack from the atlantic side as well to take out most of the industry asap, and thats not doable without a serious build-up.
 
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Grallak

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I think the changes to production and unit training benefit the US greatly and strongly discourage an early invasion.

If I didn't miss anything, you just need the equipment to deploy units, they don't necessarily need to train. If you do so, they will only be greens and fight at -50% efficiency, but you can deploy them after one day if you like.

If US now just puts everything they have into tank or motorized production...efficiency will be low at the beginning of course, and the units will be worse than they could be, but if the US can just pop up some tank divisions from nowhere to slow you down and gets more and more and more with each day passing, I don't see how you can conquer the whole nation before you get overwhelmed by that, assuming your forces themselves are not optimal either if its too early. You would have to attack from the atlantic side as well to take out most of the industry asap, and thats not doable without a serious build-up.
How do you suggest the player can overcome that issue? If the US can make troops really fast, the best would be for Japan to keep their experience points and build up until 1940 or 1941 until they have enough tanks and infantry to do a large scale invasion. Would it also be possible to attack the east coast directly without having to go through the west coast?
 

JerkyJerry

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There is just no way against anyone if I'm America and you are Japan that you are conquering. Against any equally competent human vs human war, I don't care when Japan attacks they lose. They are the definition of paper tigers. IMHO to classify Japan & Italy as majors is..... well I don't.
I would have to have fallen asleep, the clocks are frozen at 4:20 or I thought I paused the game when I hit the spacebar and did not to lose to anyone. But then again would you? Could you? Playing as America could you ever see yourself in a situation of losing to Japan?
 
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lekim

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There is just no way against anyone if I'm America and you are Japan that you are conquering. Against any equally competent human vs human war, I don't care when Japan attacks they lose. They are the definition of paper tigers. IMHO to classify Japan & Italy as majors is..... well I don't.
I would have to have fallen asleep, the clocks are frozen at 4:20 or I thought I paused the game when I hit the spacebar and did not to lose to anyone. But then again would you? Could you? Playing as America could you ever see yourself in a situation of losing to Japan?

Japanese population in 1939 was about 100 million
US 130
Germany 70-80
Italy 45
UK 48

GDPs are here http://www.paradoxian.org/hoi2wiki/index.php/GDP_statistics

The problem of japan was underdeveloped economy, but it was by far a major player.
 

JerkyJerry

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The numbers may say one thing but in the field of battle.......

Within the game (not the real world) Japan fights like, well they fight like Italians! :D
Against a major, they are easily contained, easily defendable and beatable.
 

Katarian

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If you are going to use 100m for the population of Japan then that can't really be compared to those Italy or UK numbers. The UK would have a population of about 530m if you counted it in the same way as you have to get 100m for Japan.
 
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