How to take a nation in the HRE?

[Dovahkiin MasterHoe]

My current game. Sweden is independent and allied to me, but got invaded by Russia (Russia just formed). I got pulled in as an ally and was doing okay - the warscore wasn't terribly low (around -10-ish) when suddenly Sweden peaces out giving Russia a couple of provinces INCLUDING ONE OF MINE! (Russian had literally just taken it with a wandering stack.) Thing is, I had Russia's manpower down to around 11k and I was winning most of the battles in southern Russia (I think I'd lost 3). Russia did have a large number of regiments in the area (something like 76) to my 60-ish. I was picking my battles and knocking their stacks back one by one. Then Sweden peaces out, using (in part) my land. It's only one poorly developed province, but still.

My allies include Austria (200 relationship, owes me 60 favors, holds Hungary in a PU/vassal), Spain, Silesia (trying to get a PU), and Sweden. France was my ally but dropped the alliance because I'm allied with Austria and Spain, who they rivaled.

Russia is allied with Georgia and Theodoro. Truce with Russia will expire in 9 years.

I have 67k max manpower and a force limit of 82. I'm at 12 on military tech and Russia is at 11 I'm about to grab 13. I have 63% improvement on Cavalry Combat Ability. But no matter what I anticipate doing with these numbers, Russia has that endless manpower.

If I do nothing, Russia will pick Sweden apart bit by bit - and I'll get called in with every bite. If I dissolve the alliance, Sweden will likely fall to Russia, allowing it to expand across northern Europe.

One possible suggestion I read was to make myself Emperor. Austria has 27000/6000/11000 in a standing army and 28k manpower. Hungary has 11000/9000/10000 and 48k manpower. So I don't think breaking my alliance with Austria is going to be an option.

Anyway, this is why I was asking about land in the HRE and getting control over it. My expansion options are getting limited with Russia to the east and the Ottomans to the south.

I supposed I could dump Spain or Austria or both as allies and just focus on France and go after the empire and split it between us. But what I really need is a way to take out Russia before the get any bigger.

If you declare war on Russia directly you should be able to win that war regardless of their manpower. Russian military ideas just aren't anywhere near as strong as Polands. It'd be a long war but inevitably you'd win as long as you were careful and didn't take massive amounts of attrition.

As for invading the empire the reply's on this thread have either been decent or complete trash.

1. You literally can't declare war on someone in the Empire when you are allied to Emperor in another war. The button isn't even available. I saw at least 1 reply saying that you could. Literally can't.

2. Recently it seems like there always been a 50% chance that Austria just loses the Emperorship by mid game. This is in my games and might not be for everyone but what I've seen in my last 4 or 5 Ironman games. I wasn't even in Europe for several so I had not impact on it. If this happens taking apart the empire is easy as who ever gets it can't stand up to Poland, France or Austria almost every time. Could always hope and wait for that.

3. If you really want to invade the Empire Allying France is the way to go. France is always up for invading Germany and are really powerful, though in your game yours looks a little weak, because Burgundy. If you just unally Austria and don't fight their wars though I'd bet that they'd start losing ground. Ottomans look decent, Burgundy loves killing the HRE and France almost always bounces back. Especially since the Netherlands should spawn soon, taking most of Burgundy's ability to fight and leaving the remains for France to eat.

Is this Ironman mode and are you going for any achievements? If it isn't ironman than taking Russia should be easy after a big war or two. Dropping Hungary and Austria and waiting might be your best bet. But be careful they don't immediately rival you. Get smaller Ally's that will cause mayhem in the HRE and France or Burgundy as an ally. At least, that's what I'd do in your place.

Hope this helps.

 

[IrishGirl]

Attack Russia with your allies before he attacks Sweden. Or break alliance with Sweden, wait for Russia to be busy with him then attack him. He have weak allies that will help to improve your warscore fast.

You know, now might be a really good time to do that. Austria has Bohemia and Hungary as junior partners, and owes me favors. Sweden also owes me 26 favors. And I would not be adverse to giving them back the land the land they lost in the war. So my plan would be:

Wait out truce (about nine years or until 1561). Build army to the force limit, recover manpower. When truce expires, declare on Russia. It would be Russia and her allies v. Commonwealth, Sweden, Austria, Hungary and Bohemia.

Should I try to pick up anyone else? I'm really nervous about Russia's endless manpower.

Well, first thing - if you can beat Russia in a war then it's better to be the one declaring it than have them invade Sweeden and not be war-leader. If you are a secondary in a war then ensuring that none of your provinces be occupied has to be a priority so the AI can't give them to your enemy. So I'd look at invading Russia - you have reconquest on them now as well.

Second - if you are outside the HRE and have territorial ambitions inside the HRE then being allied to the Emperor is not a good idea. You want to weaken the Emperor as much as you can so you can pick off minors with relative ease. Beware that doing this in a serious way will often result in a Protestant Empire as the Emperor is too weak to hold up when the League War fires. That may or may not be a concern for you. Looking at that map, I would suggest allying France if you can rather than Austria.

Also, what's up with that Livonian Order? They look like food to me.

Right now, I feel like I need Austria and her allies to beat Russia. She owes me a ton of favors but France, even if I allied her now, owes me nothing.

Oh and the Livonian Order? Eh, I thought I could get them voluntarily became my vassal but I don't think that's going to happen. If I drop them now - dissolve the alliance - Russia will eat them in a heartbeat.

 

[Badesumofu]

You know, now might be a really good time to do that. Austria has Bohemia and Hungary as junior partners, and owes me favors. Sweden also owes me 26 favors. And I would not be adverse to giving them back the land the land they lost in the war. So my plan would be:

Wait out truce (about nine years or until 1561). Build army to the force limit, recover manpower. When truce expires, declare on Russia. It would be Russia and her allies v. Commonwealth, Sweden, Austria, Hungary and Bohemia.

Should I try to pick up anyone else? I'm really nervous about Russia's endless manpower.



Right now, I feel like I need Austria and her allies to beat Russia. She owes me a ton of favors but France, even if I allied her now, owes me nothing.

Oh and the Livonian Order? Eh, I thought I could get them voluntarily became my vassal but I don't think that's going to happen. If I drop them now - dissolve the alliance - Russia will eat them in a heartbeat.

What I would do with all that in mind: attack Russia with your current allies. Once the war starts, dissolve the alliance with LO - they're only really in to ensure they have a truce with Russia that is longer than the truce you will have with them, thus ensuring you can eat them rather than Russia. Crush Russia.You could also wait until after the war to drop LO - as long as they have a 15 year truce with Russia then you will be able to eat them in your own time. Just keep an eye on Sweeden in case they get any ideas. Mark the land vital interest.

After you beat them once with allies, you should be able to beat them the second time without Austria or Hungary. Feel free to make use of what favours you have before you ditch them. At that point I'd aim to re-orientate your alliances and enemies such that France is your friend and Austria is your enemy. I guess your other option would be to keep Austria but try to work it so they stop being Emperor. That may or may not be doable. Of course you could also just drop your territorial ambitions in the HRE and keep pushing East. Maybe carve a path towards India and make Trade Companies. Then you could really beef up and come back to Europe later as a much stronger nation.

 

[IrishGirl]

If you declare war on Russia directly you should be able to win that war regardless of their manpower. Russian military ideas just aren't anywhere near as strong as Polands. It'd be a long war but inevitably you'd win as long as you were careful and didn't take massive amounts of attrition.

As for invading the empire the reply's on this thread have either been decent or complete trash.

1. You literally can't declare war on someone in the Empire when you are allied to Emperor in another war. The button isn't even available. I saw at least 1 reply saying that you could. Literally can't.

2. Recently it seems like there always been a 50% chance that Austria just loses the Emperorship by mid game. This is in my games and might not be for everyone but what I've seen in my last 4 or 5 Ironman games. I wasn't even in Europe for several so I had not impact on it. If this happens taking apart the empire is easy as who ever gets it can't stand up to Poland, France or Austria almost every time. Could always hope and wait for that.

3. If you really want to invade the Empire Allying France is the way to go. France is always up for invading Germany and are really powerful, though in your game yours looks a little weak, because Burgundy. If you just unally Austria and don't fight their wars though I'd bet that they'd start losing ground. Ottomans look decent, Burgundy loves killing the HRE and France almost always bounces back. Especially since the Netherlands should spawn soon, taking most of Burgundy's ability to fight and leaving the remains for France to eat.

Is this Ironman mode and are you going for any achievements? If it isn't ironman than taking Russia should be easy after a big war or two. Dropping Hungary and Austria and waiting might be your best bet. But be careful they don't immediately rival you. Get smaller Ally's that will cause mayhem in the HRE and France or Burgundy as an ally. At least, that's what I'd do in your place.

Hope this helps.

Okay, just saw this. Yes, I'm on ironman and was going for the Winged Hussars achievement but for some reason it's not firing (I've met the requirements and then some, I think?).

Thanks for clarifying number 1. I did realize that after I hovered over the unavailable button and read the description.

I don't necessarily want to expand into the HRE by force - I was sort of hoping to do it diplomatically. That's why I eventually gave Silesia a royal marriage,hoping for a PU. Like the Livonian Order, I was trying to make a vassal of them but I don't think it's going to happen.

The manpower issue with Russia is complicated by the mercs they hire. They had 22 merc regiments in our last war. I wasn't using mercs. Russia was also recruiting an endless supply of regiments (not endless, of course, but a lot).