How to rob the bank?

[Tjuk]

Obtaining sufficient funds to support the expansion of my realm and dynasty can be a bit of a hassle, with all those rebellious vassals refusing to contribute to my greater glory. However, my ambition to become the king of a unified Italy will bring me into conflict with some of the richest powers of the time: The republics of Genoa, Pisa and Venice. Here is my plan: If I'm able to win a claim on the duchy controlling the republic, the former doge holding all the republics funds will be a mayor of the main city. If my relations with my vassals allow it, I could imprison and banish this mayor and get of the republics former funds.

I just thought this up during my commute, so I won't be able to test this for a couple of hours. What do you think? Will this work? And for the case of Venice (which is an OPM), since the serene doge title is equal to a king, what will happen to the doge if I obtain the duchy or the county of Venice?

 

[grumphie]

honestly, thats useless, and unimportant. huge funds doesnt make them able to raise huge armies(thoguh you can expect a few thousand mercenaries), nro do you need those funds yourself to. those funds ar ebest used improving your personal demense, so that will give you much more money and troops. you'll want a flow of moeny for that though, as even 1000 gold is quickly spent while a 20 a year income can sustain you over a much longer time.

just convert venice into a lord mayor>doge when youre a king. much mor effectiv ethan a one time bonus for spoiled relations with other vassels.

 

[Tjuk]

Just to be clear:
- They are currently independent, and my goal is to incorporate them in my realm anyway.
- Taking the money, accumulated by the republic in the past, doesn't impact returns for the future.
- The one time bonus in this case is 21k gold(florin?), for the republic of Venice. That would pay for about 30 holdings. That's a one time bonus risking ten years of -15 relations for, me thinks.

 

[Wallain]

21k gold is worth the relationship hit. Just make sure he can't get to spend all that gold in the war.

 

[Slaxl]

I thought this was going to be about expelling those members of medieval society who were able to commit the sin of usury, after taking all their wealth, of course.

But yeah, do it, seems eminently worth it to me.

 

[Isaios]

Have him excommunicated first, to ease the relations hit with the other vassals. Otherwise the plan seems workable

 

[Tjuk]

But is it possible? The serene doge is mayor, count, duke and king of Venice. I need him to stay in Venice after my annexation, so he has to keep the mayor and count titles. The fabricate claim mission can give me a claim on the count or duke title. If I win the duke title, the serene doge title will be destroyed and I will be duke of Venice. But will the former doge still be count of Venice?

 

[Isaios]

But is it possible? The serene doge is mayor, count, duke and king of Venice. I need him to stay in Venice after my annexation, so he has to keep the mayor and count titles. The fabricate claim mission can give me a claim on the count or duke title. If I win the duke title, the serene doge title will be destroyed and I will be duke of Venice. But will the former doge still be count of Venice?

Yes. As long as you only nab the Duke title, I believe so. Never tested it though. But that's how it's worked with feudal vassals in the past after all.

 

[nyah]

grumphie is right. Although a one-time cash boost can be useful it's not the most important thing. What is important is your structural income, ie the regular monthly income you receive from your various taxes etc. The only way to build this is through expansion, either of territory, holdings, or buildings within holdings. Make sure you upgrade all the income boosting buildings as much as you can. Spending your money like this, rather than the investment (in terms of reduced relationship) needed to gain that one-time boost, will have greater benefits over the course of the game. You can hire a good few mercs and pay a few years of troop maintenance with 10000 but when it runs out it's gone for usually only marginal benefit. Get your income up to 100 every month and you'll make 10000 in 8 years.

 

[Tjuk]

Robbing the doge and expanding your base income are not exclusive. And the extra money will be invested in income generating holdings and buildings, of-course.

Will hiring all the available mercenaries limit Venice's ability to get any? In the end it won't matter if I spend the money or Venice, but taking the island will become at lot simpler.

 

[grumphie]

well, in case it nets you 21k, take it. that should easly pay for 2-3 gifts to most people who need it. just dont waste it on mercs and all, but improve your infrastructure. build some new castles and cities, improve them, and get rich fromt hem to continue on that. if you can reach +200 a month youre pretty much set for the rest of the game, with enoguh money to assasinate everyone and their mother if you need to, or to greatly boost tech spread due to building masses of universities, or crush everyone ont he field of battle without even raising your armies simply because you can hire 100k mercs and still ahve positive income.

 

[grumphie]

Robbing the doge and expanding your base income are not exclusive. And the extra money will be invested in income generating holdings and buildings, of-course.

Will hiring all the available mercenaries limit Venice's ability to get any? In the end it won't matter if I spend the money or Venice, but taking the island will become at lot simpler.

yeah, it would, but that costs more than that its worth(unless ofcourse youre damn rich but lack manpower). youre still probaly better off hireing one or two strong mercs and use those to crush those of venice, but that really shouldnt be needed. bout 5000 men should do the trick, or 7000 if you want to be save and attack them at venice. if you lack manpower, hire some mercs, put them ina boat, and the second venice hires mercs you land them to crush them quickly, and then just proceed to siege venice.

 

[Tjuk]

Well, my point is the following:
- I assume Venice will hire every available merc to make up for the difference in levi size
- I'll try to take the doges money once I've won the war.
- Ergo, who hires the mercs makes no difference in my costs for this conquest, so it might as well be me who hires them.

Another point to consider is that, since Venice is an island, I will need 1.5 times their number to overcome their defense bonus, unless I can land my troops before their freshly hired mercs build their moral. So hiring mercs might be a pretty good idea.

 

[Wallain]

Well, my point is the following:
- I assume Venice will hire every available merc to make up for the difference in levi size
- I'll try to take the doges money once I've won the war.
- Ergo, who hires the mercs makes no difference in my costs for this conquest, so it might as well be me who hires them.

Another point to consider is that, since Venice is an island, I will need 1.5 times their number to overcome their defense bonus, unless I can land my troops before their freshly hired mercs build their moral. So hiring mercs might be a pretty good idea.

Hire the mercs and put them with your retinue, march to Venice, pause when there is one day until they arrive... Declare war. Win.

 

[unmerged(505735)]

Does he own a good part of Sicily?

I never went after him because of that and his bankroll, I already had Pisa, Genoa and Nice to myself after I became King.

His funds eventually reached over 70K but in retrospect I"d go after him on a replay if you can hire enough mercs. His retinues & levies weren't too shabby though , such you want to watch your (Italy's) backside. The HRE never bested him and tried once but that's them...

I'd strike him next time he goes to war even -- seems that happened enough internally and perhaps ERE. Oh, and he wasn't too formidable when he tried to take Arcona over some convoluted deal-- my Doge was in trouble -- I can't remember what it was but he brought 18K troups and a stack of 1500. He was hostile to me and I killed the Doge. Basically he's a PIA, (gets claims, sometime tries to kill you) esp. if you have Genoa or Nice.

 

[unmerged(505735)]

P.S. I also didn't go after it because it wasn't de jure and figured it would lead to future wars I didn't want. Hope you let us know how it turns out.

 

[unmerged(512626)]

P.S. I also didn't go after it because it wasn't de jure and figured it would lead to future wars I didn't want. Hope you let us know how it turns out.

Oops posted with my mod access account. Anyway -- 7,000 troops aren't enough. I don't know if others played as Italy recently. He's well fortified and can raise and hire more than that. Going by his bankroll you aren't talking early game I presume. He also has Genoa and Nice right -- plus parts of Sicily?

I'd not go less than 25K and probably more (defending elsewhere, he'll use the navy) if he has any comparable strength to what I've seen. You should win, you just don't want to take some dumb loses to him which is quite possible. If it's early game <100 years I'm guessing 15k might suffice, but again it depends on what he owns.

Also, why aren't you claiming Pisa, (later Genoa etc) instead since its de jure?. (He didn't put up much fight for de jure territory -- since I was quite strong -- BTW). It's good to control the territory around your capital and the less Doges the better; you can destroy the duchy later.

 

[Tjuk]

It's mid game, I've got all of Italy and Sicily, the doge's only got Venice. I obtained Pisa before I thought of robbing the doge, Genoa is an minor on the Baleares, but has lost most of its cash in the wars for the mainland. So that only leaves Venice. I will try it tonight and keep you posted.

 

[unmerged(512626)]

It's mid game, I've got all of Italy and Sicily, the doge's only got Venice. I obtained Pisa before I thought of robbing the doge, Genoa is an minor on the Baleares, but has lost most of its cash in the wars for the mainland. So that only leaves Venice. I will try it tonight and keep you posted.

Ah, OK. I didn't take that away from your OP, I thought you were still in the process of unifiying Italy. Yeah, if you have all this under your control it shouldn't be much of a challenge then. It will be interesting to see if you get war dec'd -- I went the whole game w/o anyone challenging me (externally).

 

[Sopot]

I doubt he will stick around after your claim war, but that shouldn't be too much of an issue. Find out what court he goes to, if it's one in your lands, likely since you are both Italian, then grant him a small city some where, arrest him and banish. If he ends up in some other court, marti-marry him to a female in your court, grant him a city, and banish him.