how to rebalance robots

[NHunter_rus]

Not everyone have access to clone vats

Let everyone have access to base building (+33% growth speed or whatever bonus you slap there), but those with appropriate ascension perk get extra stuff like (+3 flat growth speed or a parallel bio-pop construction, or - hell - let them duplicate a bio pop that is "born" on that planet)

 

[Hansatron]

TBH I'm not sure robots themselves need a rebalance. Only two empire types (hives and spiritualists) don't have full access to them; this is a problem better solved by buffing those two types of empires instead, since they have other issues as well

The problem with robots is that the robot plant effectively grants +67% growth per planet.
It bears mentioning, of course, that roboticists used to give +1 assembly rate instead of +2; but in like 2.3 or 2.4 they changed this. Why? Because it took forever to get any robot pops so the flavor was lost.

Synth's main issue isn't how strong it is, it's how absurdly inflated the tech economy has become.

Everything I'm about to say was true before the admin cap rework.
Synths are quite simply the best pops. If the shroud let you choose your bonus guaranteed and the boons were better, maybe. But nothing beats a flat 20% output bonus and 100% habitability.
Synths also happen to assemble at like +10/month, which is beyond broken. Best pops, fastest growing pops.
Psionics have no real growth bonus.
In my opinion, robots - the basic model - should start with -20% output, so that synths eventually achieve parity. This would at least give some room for psi and bio ascension to breathe. (And cut roboticists to +1 after synth ascension. Srsly.)

The fact that synths are outright superior versions of machine pops should highlight how silly this is. They even have a trait for +10% happiness!

But ultimately the robot thing is purely a matter of pop growth. Until they rework the mechanic it won't matter because there is nothing in the game that can contest +2 growth per month starting right away.

 

[caffrn]

Everything I'm about to say was true before the admin cap rework.
Synths are quite simply the best pops. If the shroud let you choose your bonus guaranteed and the boons were better, maybe. But nothing beats a flat 20% output bonus and 100% habitability.
Synths also happen to assemble at like +10/month, which is beyond broken. Best pops, fastest growing pops.
Psionics have no real growth bonus.
In my opinion, robots - the basic model - should start with -20% output, so that synths eventually achieve parity. This would at least give some room for psi and bio ascension to breathe. (And cut roboticists to +1 after synth ascension. Srsly.)

The fact that synths are outright superior versions of machine pops should highlight how silly this is. They even have a trait for +10% happiness!

But ultimately the robot thing is purely a matter of pop growth. Until they rework the mechanic it won't matter because there is nothing in the game that can contest +2 growth per month starting right away.

You forget Synths are also the cheapest pops with easily reachable -40% consumer goods consumption. Their leaders are all immortal and eventually, all will be joining the materialist faction. You are also able to assimilate pops. In addition to that, you also gain +50% base production on energy. I really dislike that flat production bonus. I like your idea. I would also take the effect of robot upkeep on consumer goods away, since it is too strong.

 

[mial42]

The problem with robots is that the robot plant effectively grants +67% growth per planet.
It bears mentioning, of course, that roboticists used to give +1 assembly rate instead of +2; but in like 2.3 or 2.4 they changed this. Why? Because it took forever to get any robot pops so the flavor was lost.

Everything I'm about to say was true before the admin cap rework.
Synths are quite simply the best pops. If the shroud let you choose your bonus guaranteed and the boons were better, maybe. But nothing beats a flat 20% output bonus and 100% habitability.
Synths also happen to assemble at like +10/month, which is beyond broken. Best pops, fastest growing pops.
Psionics have no real growth bonus.
In my opinion, robots - the basic model - should start with -20% output, so that synths eventually achieve parity. This would at least give some room for psi and bio ascension to breathe. (And cut roboticists to +1 after synth ascension. Srsly.)

The fact that synths are outright superior versions of machine pops should highlight how silly this is. They even have a trait for +10% happiness!

But ultimately the robot thing is purely a matter of pop growth. Until they rework the mechanic it won't matter because there is nothing in the game that can contest +2 growth per month starting right away.

I'm not just talking about admin cap. The tech economy has been over inflated since megacorp; look at how pathetic research deposits and most anomaly research rewards are (and also stuff like +30 society research from the scourge queen). There's nothing wrong with synth being the strongest ascension, in principle, since it takes the longest to get and requires by far the biggest initial investment. The issue is that "longest to get" only means a couple of decades after the other ascensions at most, and the initial investment is still nearly trivial. Like I said, if there were generally ~50 years between the different ascensions instead of ~15, there would be a major opportunity cost for synth: do I go for a combat boost now (psi), a significant eco boost later (bio), or a massive eco boost in the endgame (synth). Right now, it's do I want a small boost, a medium sized boost, or a massive boost, which isn't really a choice.

 

[Zagreb 887]

This is true. "Should everyone have access to clone vats?" is a different question than "What building should assemble bio pops?", however.
Also, "bio ascension is too weak" is a fairly common opinion - tying the ability to assemble bio pops like this to bio ascension would definitely make it a more compelling option.

In itself, bio-ascension is good, it allow great things with population management, with authoritarian empires the mechanics are really good. It open a rich gameplay and nice RP.

Imo, the real problem is how broken OP synths are, because of this "mecanophilia" problem in the balance of the game for years, where Dev's refuse to even acknowledge the problem. It as taken months, before they put Hiveworlds on par with machine worlds, year for them to just change the upkeep of robot assembly to alloys.

They so many ways to balance synths without making them useless or boring to play, thread like this exist for years, but have never been taken into consideration.

Maybe the simplest way would be to have an option to lock synth ascension from game like with the horrible xeno-compatibility. It's a sad solution, but maybe it will allow to play spiritualists and hiveminds without them being a bullet in the head from the start.

 

[HFY]

Imo, the real problem is how broken OP synths are, because of this "mecanophilia" problem in the balance of the game for years, where Dev's refuse to even acknowledge the problem. It as taken months, before they put Hiveworlds on par with machine worlds, year for them to just change the upkeep of robot assembly to alloys.

Maybe the devs have been trying to fix the problem, but the build-bot keeps rejecting those changes.

 

[Red Earth]

Personally, I'd keep them at 100% but not the +200% they have so they are affected by modifiers, and give things like the magnetic field special on planets a negative to robots.

 

[A2ch0n]

I'm not just talking about admin cap. The tech economy has been over inflated since megacorp; look at how pathetic research deposits and most anomaly research rewards are (and also stuff like +30 society research from the scourge queen). There's nothing wrong with synth being the strongest ascension, in principle, since it takes the longest to get and requires by far the biggest initial investment. The issue is that "longest to get" only means a couple of decades after the other ascensions at most, and the initial investment is still nearly trivial. Like I said, if there were generally ~50 years between the different ascensions instead of ~15, there would be a major opportunity cost for synth: do I go for a combat boost now (psi), a significant eco boost later (bio), or a massive eco boost in the endgame (synth). Right now, it's do I want a small boost, a medium sized boost, or a massive boost, which isn't really a choice.

In all my playthroughs the last tech required for an ascension path i get my hands on is psionic theory even as a spiritualist. By far! The only exception to this is a lucky precursor roll (zroni) or the sea of counsciousness event. Bio is the earliest ascension and drois is in the middle. Difference between gene mod tech and droids is ~10 to 25 years (depending on your traits/origin and a fitting scientist) Psionic theory comes ~50 to 70 years later then gene mod tech.

For phase two of the ascension this changes. Psionics are the fastest because of no restrictions for the second perk and synth/perso matrix tech is the last. Gladual aclimatization for bio is sometimes a quite early roll, but thats luck.

After all are all three completed ascension path (without events giving you requirements) are not this far away from each other in the case of time needed. But the start differs sometimes exceptional and all of them depend on lucky rolls. The time difference for start and finish should be much higher if the power level stays the same IMO.