How To Make Scouts Useful

[UncleGamer]

With the current state of the light mech, especially used as a scout has little real value. While Sensor Lock helps against lighter mechs it become less effective as you deal with bigger enemy mechs with no real evasion. Also the scout mechs have no real value in and of themselves. With this in mind I suggest a few changes.

1) Sensor Lock: Remove the current implimentation of Sensor Lock, as a be all evasion removal. Instead make it only apply to weapons systems that need a lock-on, currently only LRMS. Perhaps however instead of removing evasion we give a boost to the to hit chance of the missiles. LRMs fired at a locked target get an addion 33% or maybe even 50% chance to hit. This would make the use of Sensor Lock useful against ANY mech or target.

2) Scout Mechs: The game has traditionally had a number of "scout" mechs, specficially designed for scouting missions. Lets redo that with specifically classified scout mechs. These mechs would be characterized by high speed, longer sensor range and the ability to basically carry limited weapons but possible one sniper weapon.

The longer range sensors would make them useful for scouting out enemy units. Would allow them to see the enemy before the enemy can see them, something good scouting should be able to do. High speed and light armor fit the role well and access to a single long range weapon like a single Gauss, PPC or Large Laser, would allow for the mechs to harrass once the fight was engaged without the need to close the range and thus come into harm.

These two simple steps would make some of the light mech modesl that are now considered throw away, very useful and worth the effort of acquiring.

 

[JRavens]

1) LRMs already hit way too frequently. I don't think they need a boost. Stripping 2 points of evasion is removing 10% of the defense of it (a +2 to hit basically). I get what you are saying about "all weapons" getting that bonus (actually not a bonus - just a nullification of one), but I'm on the opposite side of the fence. To me the issue with sensor lock is that it gives the AI way too much liberation to just lob missiles at you and shoot off turrets from the other side of the map you cannot see. Being pummeled at range isn't much fun when the terrain of the maps makes it difficult at best to get a mech of your own into a sniping position with a long range weapon. You are either getting rained on from the fog of war or pummeled at short range by a wave of attackers. Unlike skirmish where you can actually use positioning and tactics to overwhelm a superior force.

I think sensor lock is an interesting mechanic. It was the first thing I choose for my Dekker running around in his scout mech and it worked great during the early campaign. Later it wasn't as helpful to me nearly as much as it was to the AI.

I think Sensor Lock would have been so much better had it been made a device for light mechs (like the gear on a Raven) rather than an ability anyone can use. In fact there could have been a variety of weight ranged items to differentiate the weights better. Lights could have had sensor locks and sensor "scramblers" to screw up the to-hit rolls of enemies or launchable probes that fire indirectly into distant hexes and reveal the area around them, Medium Mechs could have had AMS and ECM/ECCM to reduce/increase the effectiveness of indirect fire weapons, Heavies could have targeting and painting systems to increase friendly attack roles and god knows what Assaults could have mounted, but it wouldn't be pretty. This could have made for tactical choices of which enemies to take out first as well depending on the situation

Maybe another way to have done would have been certain special abilities could only be used in certain weight classes - Sensor lock and evasion for lights, Brace for heavies, etc.

Not sure if there would be a good way to balance it out now. People are just too used to having access to all of the abilities in any mech weight class.

2) I would LOVE to have a reason for Light Mechs to retain their usefulness throughout the single player game. I'm trying to work on a mod for that, but the biggest hurdles are that the game simply doubles down on the amount and size of enemies once you reach a certain point. If we had to work with certain weight restrictions or if we could field more than 4 mechs it would make sense to mix and match your lance loadouts, but the devs are strongly against either of those for design and technical reasons... so this makes it very unlike tabletop where you have points to work with and you are facing an opposing force of similar value

There's really no reason to bring less than your heaviest mechs unless (A) the mission has some arbitrary reason (time limit, fast escaping target, etc) or (B) you have some personal strategy or self satisfaction for doing so (haha! See I can bring down an Assault mech with my tricked out Firestarter)

There's just not a *good* way to give Light mechs the survivability they need for late game battles. Positioning, initiative order, and careful strategy are mandatory for using them late game and not every player (certainly not the average player I would wager) will be able to keep them alive. Hell my 50 ton mech with full armor got one shot by a fist through the cockpit. The enemy just walked right up and head capped me. Literally only survived because it was MY character and the game keeps you from dying (he was in the infirmary for something like a 149 days LOL) so RNG can just throw everything out the window even on the best days. I did learn a valuable lesson about being cocky with extra armor though

Without access to LosTech like Ferro-Fibrous armor, Endo Steel skeletons, Light Autocannons (LAC) and the like it's going to be hard to do what you want to do with light mechs without "breaking the rules". If you arbitrary allow them to have extra armor or heavy weapons in the name of "balance" then you are redefining what their weight class is. Light Mechs have always been weak, but fast skirmishing units meant to harass and flank the enemy.

Part of the reason they don't work well as scouts in HBS BT is because the game triggers the enemies as soon as YOU detect them. This is inherently wrong. Scouts should reveal the enemy forces and the enemy should not react until you either attack them or your forces move within sensor range of THEIR scouts. At the very least there should be a 1 turn delay or you always get the first round to act so you can pull your scout back instead of it having to endure an entire first turn of enemy attacks.

IMO The problem isn't "let's fix Light Mechs" it's "let's fix the mission design and engagement rules"

 

[GidoM3CH]

@JRavens
I'd agree to most of your points. I too would like to have lights viable for end-game. And yes hopefully they would implement special abilities for each mech weight class and a varied type for missions and rewards, like some (+++) weapons and equipment added to the contract if no salvage is taken or non to be had.

 

[UnitSe7en]

1) I think Sensor Lock would have been so much better had it been made a device for light mechs (like the gear on a Raven) rather than an ability anyone can use. In fact there could have been a variety of weight ranged items to differentiate the weights better. Lights could have had sensor locks and sensor "scramblers" to screw up the to-hit rolls of enemies or launchable probes that fire indirectly into distant hexes and reveal the area around them, Medium Mechs could have had AMS and ECM/ECCM to reduce/increase the effectiveness of indirect fire weapons, Heavies could have targeting and painting systems to increase friendly attack roles and god knows what Assaults could have mounted, but it wouldn't be pretty. This could have made for tactical choices of which enemies to take out first as well depending on the situation

Maybe another way to have done would have been certain special abilities could only be used in certain weight classes - Sensor lock and evasion for lights, Brace for heavies, etc.

Cannot disagree with this. More electronic warfare modules, whether specifically for light mechs or not.

 

[jss78]

I was going to post another thread, but this was on top so I'll add here.

I feel this game (while generally GREAT) is kind of falling into that old trap where it's "go heavy or go home".

I hear all these statements that "lights are crap". It's unfortunately true in this game, but it doesn't have to be. Assaults are great at tanking and dealing damage. But they're AWFUL at moving fast.

And with that, IMO at least for the campaign, HBS would have endless avenues to make lights useful. Give us mission objectives which require a lot of speed. If not the PRIMARY objective, to not frustrate the player who brought his Steiner scout lance, at least SECONDARY objectives which allow the player who brought his Locust to farm a lot of c-bills?

TL;DR: give us campaign missions where ASSAULTS are crap, and the player needs a fast 'mech.

 

[JRavens]

>TL;DR: give us campaign missions where ASSAULTS are crap, and the player needs a fast 'mech.

They said they are working on this and it will definitely be a welcome addition, but to be honest unless it's more than a handful of missions it simply won't be enough. Having a few missions that someone *might* fail if they didn't bring a fast enough mech will lead to either (A) shrugging shoulders and sucking up the loss - by mid to late game it's really no big deal to lose a mission as you are swimming in cash and rep -OR- (B) bringing a light mech out of mothball for just that mission... which I guess is better than nothing, but really doesn't address the fact that the game has turned battletech from strategic consideration to Atlas > Awesome > Orion > Shadow Hawk > Panther > Locust

May as well be an RPG because all you are doing is leveling your character and grabbing better armor and loot

Even a game like Mechcommander which was essential an RTS had better balance and reasoning to field various size mechs.

If evasion was a truly effective counter to all the missile spam and horde of enemy fire then light mechs would potentially be more viable, but late game missions it's FAR too easy to lose a light to random fire. You definitely CAN bring them and through (very) careful positioning and reserving make good use of specific tactics (Firestarter shutdowns, exploiting rear flanks with a tricked out Jenner, etc - some people get very creative with this), BUT you are giving up a LOT of consistent firepower to jockey those into the right SPECIFIC situational uses. It's still far more effective from a gameplay perspective to have another 80-100 ton weapon platform hitting round after round to slow down the enemy waves then a under 50 tonner you are constantly trying to keep shielded until you can spring your specialized "trap".

Another potential idea could have been shutdowns. Maybe a mechanic like:

* A mech that shuts down breaks sensor lock and cannot be targeted by indirect fire (although direct fire would get a bonus to hit). Mechs can shutdown after they move but cannot fire (so an option to choose other than Brace).

* A powered down mech is considered off sensors and so the enemy will ignore it unless they (A) can still see it via LOS.. or they stumble across it during their move or (B) had attacked the mech in the current or previous round - since they still know it's approximate location i.e. "hey he went over that hill"

* A mech that shuts down can restart in the following round, but is pushed back an initiative phase. If this pushes them past 4 initiative then they cannot move nor fire after they power up. That would be less than useful for Assaults, but better for lights because they could protect themselves from indirect fire while quickly advancing / flanking.

Just *some* kind of mechanic or equipment to give them survivability or distinct usefulness. As it currently stands evasion and scouting are too weak with the way the mission design and combat works.

 

[UncleGamer]

i like an idea presented here. instead of Lockon being a Pilot skill, make it a mech feature. Give the scout Mechs the specific ability to share long range data locks.

 

[UnitSe7en]

i like an idea presented here. instead of Lockon being a Pilot skill, make it a mech feature. Give the scout Mechs the specific ability to share long range data locks.

Absolutly. I'm happy with gates and hurdles - I think restrictions can make everything more interesting, but to appease the people who say "Don't make me have to play a certain way", opening up the idea to all classes (or most classes) might be better. Obviously for a lot of people using EW options on a light mech as a scout would just seem like the natural thing to do anyway.