How to make Ecumenopolis and Ringworld great again?

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arothuris

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Not totally on topic, but I think there should be a separate growth counter on individual planets before the empire-wide pop scaling applied. Surely my newly colonized, emptied planet should grow a tag faster than my old, densed homeworld?
 
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aroddo

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personally, I still think that Ecumenopoli are OP.
1635015944604.png


And having a ringworld is always a happy day, too:

1635016297141.png


Yeah, the special resource upkeep is stiff, but you simply build the respective buildings to pay for it directly.
 

The Bored Chairman

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Gonna reach for the low-hanging fruit here and say build a wall of bastions to keep the xenos out.

Real talk, they're still really good, just not as disgustingly powerful as they used to be.

Honestly, I think they're in a fine place right now. Buffing Ring Worlds would buff the Origin (and it's still top-tier), whereas buffing Ecus would be kind of irrelevant, since you only really need a few of them.

Not to mention they'd be ANOTHER giant middle appendage to Hive Minds.
 

theBigTurnip385

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Syncretic Origin -> both species have budding.
Pleasure Seekers, Catalytic Convertor.

Your Ecu produces science + alloys + food + (Pop assembly & Pop Growth), it fills up. Just don't play with pop scaling at max)
Your Ecu has 4 jobs
Science,
Alloy,
Livestock,
Domestic Servant

It will NEVER fill up and the growth curve slow down will never be hit.

The domestic Servants + Livestock only use .25 housing

Play Megacorp since they have the highest amenity output so your domestic servants with a base 10 amenity output produce lots and lots of amenities.

Also you eventually only have Ecu's and nothing else except a Matter Decompressor for minerals

Specialized -> into (Science + Alloys), (Trade), (Food + Gas, Motes) + Matter Decompressor
 

Nerisande

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Ringworlds and ecunmenopoli are still great, giving too much quality of life in lategame.
You don't want to manage ~50 conquered planets when you can do some resettlement and manage only a couple of ringworld segments.
 
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ZeeHero

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Ringworld is still too large for what you can realistically populate, but even at 50-100 pops per segment, pretty good, considering each segment should be able to hold like 1000.
 

Ryika

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Yea, and that's why they effing changed it in the first place, because the old version was exactly that, all the time. If people want to change it back, then they gotta accept what it means to go back. It's really simple.
That's a False Dichotomy: There are more options than "Performance Nightmare" and "Basically no Lategame Growth".

People have already made lot of suggestions on the topic, it's just that the official implementation isn't particularly good. Partially because of the basic idea behind the system, and partially because it's a linear cost increase, which means pop growth will always either grow so heavily early on that the system doesn't do its job, or plateau very suddenly. There simply isn't a good middle ground because of the overly simplistic nature of the formula.

When presented with the choice between that system and disasterous lategame performancy, I'll obviously prefer the system that lets me continue playing - but that doesn't mean I'm happy with the solution. It just means it's the lesser poison - I still hope they do a proper rework in the future.
 
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TheRevanchist25

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That's a False Dichotomy: There are more options than "Performance Nightmare" and "Basically no Lategame Growth".

People have already made lot of suggestions on the topic, it's just that the official implementation isn't particularly good. Partially because of the basic idea behind the system, and partially because it's a linear cost increase, which means pop growth will always either grow so heavily early on that the system doesn't do its job, or plateau very suddenly. There simply isn't a good middle ground because of the overly simplistic nature of the formula.

When presented with the choice between that system and disasterous lategame performancy, I'll obviously prefer the system that let's me continue playing - but that doesn't mean I'm happy with the solution. It just means it's the lesser poison - I still hope they do a proper rework in the future.

I suspect Stellaris 2 would be required to truly address the problem, along with many others the game has. Given the hiring spree they did not too long ago, I suspect Stellaris 2 is on the way, I just hope they don't pull a Crusader Kings and remove all the content the DLCs added to the previous game.
 
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DeanTheDull

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Ecumenopolis was OP when it was first introduced, there was no industrial district at that time and the arcologies don’t require any strategic resources. This is the reason why First League is the only precursor don’t have relic. But now, as time changed, it falls from OP to mediocre. I don’t pick the arcology project ascension perk anymore, you’re good enough with relic worlds that are guaranteed to spawn and turn then into Ecumenopolis.

It's going to bounce back in value when admin sprawl is reworked.

Ecumenopoli and Ringworlds aren't just producers, they're efficient producers in terms of upkeep but especially admin sprawl. The strategic resources you're using are basically cutting off admin sprawl per X number of jobs supported. That's already significant now, because every point of admin sprawl in the later game is huge amounts of wasted science-beakers, but by the same token you don't want to waste pops on admin upkeep (which, itself, requires strategic resources to be efficient).

When bureaucrat spam is no longer a thing, Ecumenopoli won't just be better production centers, they'll be key to avoiding science cost inflation in mature empires.






I think we could add more Ecumenopolis type like Planetary Diversity - More Arcologies. Maybe not that many, but at least have one industrial oriented with new type arcology that produce rare resources and one civilian oriented with commercial arcology. And make a new designation with commercial arcology that can collect trade value like your capital. It means they are the secondary economic center of your empire.

A commercial/trade arcology is worth considering, though there may be some trade code that's not modification-friendly, but there's really no need for a strategic resource arcology. That's just building slots, which already exist on the planets you should be de-industrializing when moving pops to the arcology. Habitats especially will be your ideal refineries, thanks to their multiplication of space-based resources.


Ring world districts need some improvement too. Once you build a ring world, you will only build research segment, and nothing else. Why would you waste precious ring world district to build agricultural segment and you need to pay rare resources upkeep? Not to mention, you must built or repaired a multi-stage megastructure and acquired Mega-Engineering technology, then pick Galactic Wonders ascension perk and research ring world. You need to wait 18.3 years and pay 25000 alloys to get first segment. You are only after the tech boost from the ring world if really consider all the prerequisite.

Outside of science, Ringworlds are basically the galaxy's refugee camp system that lets you benefit from waves of refugees and create a core economic base that's consolidated behind defenses and not vulnerable to being destroyed piecemeal by the crisis. It's something that lets you grow stronger as the AI falls, rather than have swarms upset your amenity and stability balances or become huge CG sinks for lack of jobs. It also puts your economic heart behind a secure defense line, rather than seeing your industrial core starved to death if you lose the frontier, ie if the Contingency spawns inside your economic bread basket and you go from having the strongest economy to dying in decades.

If you're good enough/strong enough that you can solo the crisis without AI, it's a waste. But the role is basically to achieve a compact self-sufficiency even if you lose much of your empire.
 
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DeanTheDull

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The relative weakness of both is down to the pop change, without specific pop condenser/vacuum builds your just not gonna ever fill out these super worlds in the course of a normal game. Heck anything but your first few worlds and the handful of 11-14 size planets won't max out either in the course of play. There just aren't the pops to make them worth taking with regular settings.

Tech rings are best rings this is true, but i think that has more to do with the ring colony designations, then the districts themselves. Being the only colony type that's given a tech production increase, when ever other type just get upkeep cuts is silly good. Other types of output are more in line with normal worlds but not tech for some reason. Imo just nerf the tech ring designation and then see what else needs to be done to level the field for the other districts.

Ecus just suck period no matter what has been done to there districts. There intended to be ultra dense pop worlds on par with multiple ring segments(planet size willing).
But you can't fill them so the potential density is worthless.

Filling them is easy. Just go with breeder worlds, rather than growing them on-site.

3.0's pop-changes has a few key tool that a lot of people overlook in how the S curve and auto-migration interact. Because the pop-growth S cureve is higher in the middle than at capacity, you don't want to 'max out' planets in the first place- you want to max out their growth, and then stop developing those planets further so that their pops auto-migrate. Pops will auto-migrate within a year or so, and if the only target with jobs is the new Ecu...

3.0's change is that you want to be pouring an empire's worth of growth into one spot, rather than trying to grow everywhere in your empire simultaneously.

If you're able to get a host of breeder worlds or habitats, you can basically fill a Ecumenopolis faster than you can build the districts. Even if every planet in your empire takes 10 years a pop, 10 breeder worlds exporting pops is going to give that Ecu a pop-a-year. It's probably not going to take 10 years either- if it is, you've probably already won- and it's relatively easy to get more pops migrating than you can build for. Egalitarian and Authoritarian really pay off here, Egalitarian with increased auto-migration and the unemployment benefits, or Authoritarian if you take Corve system and can just immediately migrate pops without influence.
 
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Bezborg

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You can get a *lot* of productivity modifiers though, so the marginal value of that extra 20% is much less than you think. Gaia planets also give 10% *and* their districts don't have rare resource upkeep (and the bonus happiness can increase stability which may well mean more production if your stability wasn't maxed anyway).

Ecumenopolis and Ringworlds are even less valuable now because their districts take rare resource upkeep, which paradoxically makes them useless for the sort of empire that could otherwise have used them, a territory low tall empire can't pay those upkeeps without wasting all the building slots on refineries, but they're also the only empire that probably has low enough population at the point they can colonise a ringworld that it won't end up a ghost town, its vast space wasted by the inability to grow enough pops to do anything with it.
Tbh you don't have to produce everything.

I play tall almost exclusively, and I just use the market for the rare resources. Might as well use all that trade value (which I focus on for RP reasons)
 

Gorgalog

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personally, I have always got the feeling that Ringworlds and Ecumonopolis huge sizes were 'intended' as a thing to assist with 'Tall' empires/playstyles
however, due to the way that growing new pops works, and how vastly important it is to have as much planets as possible colonized due to how both Ringworlds and Ecumonopolis just fall behind since you can never fill them fast enough for them to be worth it.

like the imagine if on Ecumonopolis/Ringworlds could allow for more than one pop to grow naturally simultaneously (probably to a max of 3 or so at a time) , then they would be much, much more attractive due to their potential to boost your population quicker much higher, but unfortunately, something like that is unlikely to happen due to how hard it would be to balance such a thing to prevent snowballing and how it would likely further increase the performance issues that already happen when the galaxy gets way too populated.
 

Incompetent

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There are some situations where an Ecumenopolis lets you do something special. For instance, in my current game with Clone Army origin, I got the Memorex modifier on my homeworld. If I turn that into an Ecumenopolis and put all 5 Ancient Clone Vats there, I can have a super-efficient alloy world with 100 ascended clones (plus whatever other species to make up the numbers), getting outputs per pop that wouldn't be possible for me any other way. A similar thing happens with Rogue Servitors, where the economies of scale from the Bio-Trophy bonus only really kick in on very large colonies, i.e. ecus and ringworlds. (It's a pity Rogue Servitors won't be able to use Ocean Paradise or Hydrocentric, as they're one of the few empire types that really benefits from super-large planets.)

It's true though that you need some sort of pop funnel for this to work: the ecu/ringworld by itself won't make you rich and powerful, you need to fill it with pops pulled from a large number of other colonies (either your own, colonies you raid or refugees). So you shouldn't think of it as "making a big colony will let me support a big population", but rather in terms of the relative benefit of having a large chunk of your population concentrated on a few colonies where you can really stack the bonuses.

That said, I do wish it were possible to have concentrated pop growth engines, rather than Habitat spam being basically the only way you can peacefully invest in pop farming. There are a few elements of this here and there (machine worlds with maxed capitals having the most replicator jobs; Budding giving exponential pop assembly, albeit with a very small base), but they aren't systematic enough, and the special large colony types don't directly contribute all that much.
 
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Fenris_SE

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Does anyone not turn off the stupid pop growth scaling?

Apparently not, everyone complains about the changes, but never seems to change it themselves even though the developers gave everyone the option to change it.
I haven't yet, just because I wanted to give it a fair try and play a few games before deciding if the new system was garbage or not.
 
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Ferrus Animus

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personally, I still think that Ecumenopoli are OP.
View attachment 767373

Yeah, the special resource upkeep is stiff, but you simply build the respective buildings to pay for it directly.

You can get similar output via normal forge worlds:
3 industrial districts and 0.5 city districts provide the same housing and jobs as an arcology districts, costing a total of 7 energy but no motes.

It would be spread out over more planets, but given the current slow down of growth you usually have the room.
It costs more in empire sprawl and ecumenopoli do have a production bonus, but it's not much of an increase compared to just using baseline forgeworlds. And in return you save 200 influence and an ascension perk.

Yeah, that's not OP. That's a trade-off and one of dubious value.
I think people keep conflating "easy to manage and big numbers" with OP.
 
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ZeeHero

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Calling it OP would be wrong, it's not OP, it's not even as good as it should be. That doesn't mean it's not worth having at least one.
 
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TheRevanchist25

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Dec 18, 2018
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I personally have never spent an ascension perk to get an Ecu, if I don't find a Relic World I would never bother, far too many other ascension perks I would rather have that provide more overarching benefits. However, I disagree with the idea that their terrible. In my last campaign I had 2 of them, one was the First League Relic World and the other was the Vazurean Menace Ecu station. I had them both filled and like 7 other planets and I was absolutely drowning in resources. I couldn't spend the stuff fast enough. First time I ever had to build Silos. Megastructure costs were trivial. This was after the pop changes. So honestly, I'm not sure why people even complain about the pop changes, because I had no real issues the entire game. Never lost a war, never had production issues that I couldn't remedy and the handful of nations I took over, just added their pops to my already excessive production. I suppose if you live the MEME life of being a hateful Xeno purger where the only pops you get are your native ones I can see why you might have issues. But if your not, there really isn't an issue at all.
 

Ferrus Animus

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Sep 16, 2019
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So honestly, I'm not sure why people even complain about the pop changes, because I had no real issues the entire game. Never lost a war, never had production issues that I couldn't remedy and the handful of nations I took over, just added their pops to my already excessive production.

It's not a complaint about power. It's a complaint about empty planets. It doesn't break the gameplay, it breaks the narrative fantasy.
 
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