How to make Ecumenopolis and Ringworld great again?

[苏白@夢璃花]

Ecumenopolis was OP when it was first introduced, there was no industrial district at that time and the arcologies don’t require any strategic resources. This is the reason why First League is the only precursor don’t have relic. But now, as time changed, it falls from OP to mediocre. I don’t pick the arcology project ascension perk anymore, you’re good enough with relic worlds that are guaranteed to spawn and turn then into Ecumenopolis.

I think we could add more Ecumenopolis type like Planetary Diversity - More Arcologies. Maybe not that many, but at least have one industrial oriented with new type arcology that produce rare resources and one civilian oriented with commercial arcology. And make a new designation with commercial arcology that can collect trade value like your capital. It means they are the secondary economic center of your empire.

Ring world districts need some improvement too. Once you build a ring world, you will only build research segment, and nothing else. Why would you waste precious ring world district to build agricultural segment and you need to pay rare resources upkeep? Not to mention, you must built or repaired a multi-stage megastructure and acquired Mega-Engineering technology, then pick Galactic Wonders ascension perk and research ring world. You need to wait 18.3 years and pay 25000 alloys to get first segment. You are only after the tech boost from the ring world if really consider all the prerequisite.

 

[legionof1]

The relative weakness of both is down to the pop change, without specific pop condenser/vacuum builds your just not gonna ever fill out these super worlds in the course of a normal game. Heck anything but your first few worlds and the handful of 11-14 size planets won't max out either in the course of play. There just aren't the pops to make them worth taking with regular settings.

Tech rings are best rings this is true, but i think that has more to do with the ring colony designations, then the districts themselves. Being the only colony type that's given a tech production increase, when ever other type just get upkeep cuts is silly good. Other types of output are more in line with normal worlds but not tech for some reason. Imo just nerf the tech ring designation and then see what else needs to be done to level the field for the other districts.

Ecus just suck period no matter what has been done to there districts. There intended to be ultra dense pop worlds on par with multiple ring segments(planet size willing).
But you can't fill them so the potential density is worthless.

 

[Bezborg]

I think to make them truly special is to give them city districts, and the rest: empty district slots! Then you choose. There can be a lot of types, really a lot. Some can be behind technologies. Some can be behind traditions and ascension perks. Doesn't matter.

Army districts, administrative districts, commercial, research, refinery... you name it. Make it modular and fluid. Once selected - it's locked in.

Make it modular and *different* from everything else.

 

[Bezborg]

Ecus just suck period no matter what has been done to there districts. There intended to be ultra dense pop worlds on par with multiple ring segments(planet size willing).
But you can't fill them so the potential density is worthless.

Sadly, you're absolutely right

 

[Fenris_SE]

I just played with a Relic World start, then turned it into an Ecumenopolis while using Rogue Servitors. Gotta say, it was pretty insane. First time I was able to float my economy pretty much from the start with consumer goods (I usually struggle to keep up with demand), even when I didn't need to float my economy anymore I was selling between 300 to 500 consumer goods per month with just one district (and a smattering here and there on regular worlds). The alloy output was pretty insane as well, that one planet made over 2k alloys. Only time I ran out of alloys was when I upgraded 3 mega structures, made a titan and several battleships all at the same time. First time I'd ever put a few resource silos down, I was just making so much of everything I couldn't spend it fast enough. Had the game since tiled planets and this was my first Rogue Servitor empire lol, so I'm sure I made plenty of mistakes and the numbers could have been even better. But I guess my experience comes down to the civic more than the Ecumenopolis itself.

But like everything else since the pop changes (yeah I know I could turn it off, just trying to give it a fair try), population was the problem. I found myself taking Nihilistic Acquisition and OTA Updates even though I didn't really want either on Empire creation just so I could steal and move pops to where I needed them. Although I suppose I could have just landed armies and moved pops that way and skipped Nihilistic Acquisition.

And ringworlds ... thought about building a few in that playthrough then thought about how much of a headache it would be to fill them. It was getting close to 2400 by that point and natural pop growth would have never filled them. They were hard enough to fill before the pop changes. I used to love getting the Cybrex precursor, now I groan almost as much as I do when I see the Yuht precursor pop up. I'd much rather get the First League precursor and at least get some decent science out of it before pop growth slows down to pretty much zero.

 

[TrotBot]

increase ringworld popgrowth the way you do on gaias

 

[Surimi]

Both are still very powerful. The question is whether they're worth it compared to other options, and the answer is generally no. Less because they're weak, and more because it just takes them so long to outperform regular planets. Having essentially infinite space isn't so much of an advantage any more. Ringworlds also have to compete with the Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor, both of which are hugely more valuable than them.

 

[blahmaster6k]

The relative weakness of both is down to the pop change, without specific pop condenser/vacuum builds your just not gonna ever fill out these super worlds in the course of a normal game. Heck anything but your first few worlds and the handful of 11-14 size planets won't max out either in the course of play. There just aren't the pops to make them worth taking with regular settings.

Tech rings are best rings this is true, but i think that has more to do with the ring colony designations, then the districts themselves. Being the only colony type that's given a tech production increase, when ever other type just get upkeep cuts is silly good. Other types of output are more in line with normal worlds but not tech for some reason. Imo just nerf the tech ring designation and then see what else needs to be done to level the field for the other districts.

Ecus just suck period no matter what has been done to there districts. There intended to be ultra dense pop worlds on par with multiple ring segments(planet size willing).
But you can't fill them so the potential density is worthless.

I have a 300+ pop ecumenopolis in the early 2300s as a Rogue Servitor with default sliders, it's not hard to fill them up. Granted, 150 of those pops are resettled bio-trophies from empires I conquered, but the other 150 of those pops still assembled naturally with no resettlement. Ring worlds aren't nearly as good anymore but ecus with the 50% growth bonus fill up just fine.

 

[Me_]

That's why the galaxy isn't full of ecumenopoli and ring worlds left behind by fallen empires - they just aren't worth it.

 

[Ryika]

Both are still very powerful. The question is whether they're worth it compared to other options, and the answer is generally no. Less because they're weak, and more because it just takes them so long to outperform regular planets. Having essentially infinite space isn't so much of an advantage any more. Ringworlds also have to compete with the Dyson Sphere and Matter Decompressor, both of which are hugely more valuable than them.

Ecus also have an inherent +20% productivity modifier, and the +50% pop growth on a planet that will pretty much always have the *1.5 modifier.

Takes a while for the initial investment to be paid back, but then +20% on everything is quite a lot. I'd say they're still very strong, just not "mandatory"-levels of strong anymore.

 

[Aepdneds]

Tech rings are best rings this is true, but i think that has more to do with the ring colony designations, then the districts themselves. Being the only colony type that's given a tech production increase, when ever other type just get upkeep cuts is silly good. Other types of output are more in line with normal worlds but not tech for some reason. Imo just nerf the tech ring designation and then see what else needs to be done to level the field for the other districts.

"Being the only colony type that's given a tech production increase": Tech habitats are also giving a tech production bonus, it is a little bit smaller though, 10% instead of 15%

 

[GloatingSwine]

Ecus also have an inherent +20% productivity modifier, and the +50% pop growth on a planet that will pretty much always have the *1.5 modifier.

Takes a while for the initial investment to be paid back, but then +20% on everything is quite a lot. I'd say they're still very strong, just not "mandatory"-levels of strong anymore.

You can get a *lot* of productivity modifiers though, so the marginal value of that extra 20% is much less than you think. Gaia planets also give 10% *and* their districts don't have rare resource upkeep (and the bonus happiness can increase stability which may well mean more production if your stability wasn't maxed anyway).

Ecumenopolis and Ringworlds are even less valuable now because their districts take rare resource upkeep, which paradoxically makes them useless for the sort of empire that could otherwise have used them, a territory low tall empire can't pay those upkeeps without wasting all the building slots on refineries, but they're also the only empire that probably has low enough population at the point they can colonise a ringworld that it won't end up a ghost town, its vast space wasted by the inability to grow enough pops to do anything with it.

 

[ZeeHero]

Ecumenopoli are absolutely worth it in mid-late game. nearly all my alloys in my last game came from a single forge ecumenopolis, well over 1000 monthly. Sure I only had one, would be nice if they fixed pops. Would help performance too, bad pop backend code is what causes most of the lag.

 

[Ryika]

You can get a *lot* of productivity modifiers though, so the marginal value of that extra 20% is much less than you think. Gaia planets also give 10% *and* their districts don't have rare resource upkeep (and the bonus happiness can increase stability which may well mean more production if your stability wasn't maxed anyway).

Ecumenopolis and Ringworlds are even less valuable now because their districts take rare resource upkeep, which paradoxically makes them useless for the sort of empire that could otherwise have used them, a territory low tall empire can't pay those upkeeps without wasting all the building slots on refineries, but they're also the only empire that probably has low enough population at the point they can colonise a ringworld that it won't end up a ghost town, its vast space wasted by the inability to grow enough pops to do anything with it.

You can say that about any production modifier though. Sure, relative to your overall production it's not going to be much, but in the end, 20% is 20%: You gain 0.8 Alloys per Metallurgist per Month if a t3 foundry exists on the planet, or 0.6 at baseline.

And the rare resource upkeep isn't that bad. You get 10 housing + 6 jobs for 5 energy + 1 rare resource, which is essentially ~18 energy total if the resource is bought on the market at base price with a 30% fee. That's the worst case scenario of course, if you have some natural deposit on one of your planet and the mining subsidies running, it's more like ~12-13 energy.

Roughly the same jobs plus housing would cost you ~8 upkeep on a normal planet, but on the flipside you require 4 times the districts, and you'll lose a total of 4.8 Alloys from the Pops for not having the Ecu bonus. That's quite a lot, especially when you factor in how valuable alloys become on the Galactic Market.

Unless there's something I'm missing, the Ecu is still vastly more productive than a normal planet - the question is really whether you can stomach the initial investment cost without setting yourself back in other regards.

 

[BlackholePD]

Definitely still good for niche uses, especially playing with confined space. Last game I got boxed in by a War on Heaven and the Crisis, and my Ringworld saved me; first I was able to use it to mass-grow food when I couldn't colonize any normal worlds, and then when I needed to withdraw to my core systems and restock my fleets I literally just moved all my outer planet populations onto the Ringworld. Converted the agri districts to foundries and my alloy production didn't suffer even though I was essentially living out of just a couple of systems. So good choice for when you want to or are required to convert to playing tall later in game.

Would appreciate a more general buff though, yeah. Often I'll be looking at all the space and thinking, "what can I even do with this"?

Another option I've sometimes used is ecus as dedicated bio-trophy housing for conquered bio pops when playing as servitors, so I don't have to spend resources converting conquered worlds to house them, but that's even more niche.

 

[Empire of Terra Nova]

ring worlds are good as shelters for refugees mid-/late-game

and ecumenopolae are almost mandatory when playing tall, they're only downside is that it takes a while to get them

 

[currylambchop]

Does anyone not turn off the stupid pop growth scaling?

 

[TheRevanchist25]

Does anyone not turn off the stupid pop growth scaling?

Apparently not, everyone complains about the changes, but never seems to change it themselves even though the developers gave everyone the option to change it.

 

[Ryika]

Apparently not, everyone complains about the changes, but never seems to change it themselves even though the developers gave everyone the option to change it.

Because:

Warning: Lowering this has significant performance and balance implications, and decreasing Growth Ceiling alongside it is highly recommended.

 

[TrotBot]

i like the growth changes i just wish it was easier to "commit to pop growth" and overcome them. it's hard to get the pop numbers i need to really feel as powerful as i did before 3.0. giving ringworlds a pop growth bonus like ecus and gaias would help.