How to liberalise a South American nation

[Ksim3000]

Ok guys, lately I've been getting back into Victoria 2 and have been trying to play as a South American country. I always wanted to relive the old days of liberalising a country on the South American continent and turning it into an immigrant powerhouse. Considering that South America shares an immigration bonus just like North America, I thought it would be the way to go.

Right now I am playing on HOD 3.03 and oh boy, I have not been successful at all. First I tried to play as Argentina starting in 1836. During that period, Argentina was under a Presidential Dictatorship that it only got rid of around the 1850s in OTL, I think. So I tried to play Argentina, tried to promote the liberal party for popularity points using my NF and yet consciousness fails to rise and the same old Presidential Dictatorship stays in power until the 1880s.

This was annoying me until I read about rebels so I thought, "why not?". First I let the Anarcho-Liberals take power in my capitol but that has no effect for me. Then I let the Reactionaries take power who lo and behold, install an absolute monarchy with which then I can install a Liberal Party and change the country towards a Democracy. Yet despite this change of government, there is no desire for social and political reforms with which to truly change the nation and so I gave up in the end.

Secondly, I tried Venezuela which starts out as a democracy in 1836. I used the NF for Clergymen to get the extra research and literacy points and even successfully got a liberal party into power. Yet consciousness starts to heavily decline and by the 1870s, there is no demand for social or political reforms. So I read and realised it was the Clergymen that was being problematic as they reduce consciousness so I decided not to focus on the NF for the Clergy and try again. I see at the start Venezuela has increasing consciouess. So a few days in, it starts to heavily decline, to a similar level I saw in my previous game.

I'm at a loss here. Just how can I successfully liberalise a South America nation and bring in the necessary social and political reforms with which to turn them into immigrant magnets? Or are they simply impossible to do at this stage due to various patches and expansions that have nerfed South America?

 

[DesNibelungen]

You don't mention increasing militancy. For me, getting militancy high (though obviously not too high) is the only thing that seems to trigger political reforms.

One nice way to get some extra MIL to put you over the 50% threshold is to switch to an unpopular ruling party, resulting in a reform opportunity.

 

[Flobalob]

I would suggest that you don't play the game without HoD. That won't have much bearing on your liberals, but it's just a much better game than AHD.

Primarily, if using NF to promote liberal party loyalty doesn't work, just in general try to increase your consciousness. Make sure your POPs are getting their luxury needs and always choose event decisions that will increase consciousness.

 

[Ksim3000]

You don't mention increasing militancy. For me, getting militancy high (though obviously not too high) is the only thing that seems to trigger political reforms.

One nice way to get some extra MIL to put you over the 50% threshold is to switch to an unpopular ruling party, resulting in a reform opportunity.

This is a problem with South American states. They start with parties that in general do not allow you to switch, compared to Europe. In Argentina's case, I suppose the absolute monarchy government was the only possible solution but even still, it takes a long time for those rebels to form.

I would suggest that you don't play the game without HoD. That won't have much bearing on your liberals, but it's just a much better game than AHD.

Primarily, if using NF to promote liberal party loyalty doesn't work, just in general try to increase your consciousness. Make sure your POPs are getting their luxury needs and always choose event decisions that will increase consciousness.

Oops! My mistake. I am playing HOD but I did a typo and put "AHD" instead. I've just edited to fix that. Sorry about any potential confusion.

But you have touched upon the problem I am having. Its the consciousness issue that is coming back to bite me. As Venezuela for example, I was able to successfully use the liberal party NF to actually get my main liberal party voted into office. That itself was no problem. The big issue was the upper house. Consciousness continued to decline and after 1850, Liberal support slid to a stand still. I could not pass any reforms and despite taking over enemy provinces and turning them into slave free states, it did boost the consciousness but only for a short while.

I have two questions in regard to this:

1) How can I successfully boost consciousness and keep it growing without a decline?

2) Is using the clergy NF a bad thing to begin with? Should I hold off on that?

 

[Flobalob]

1) How can I successfully boost consciousness and keep it growing without a decline?

2) Is using the clergy NF a bad thing to begin with? Should I hold off on that?

1) Well, as far as I know if your POPs are having their luxury needs met this will lead to an increase in consciousness. I'm not too sure on the exact effect of this, however. Also, taxes will increase your consciousness by (tax rate-33)/100, so 100% taxes=0.67 modifier to consciousness. Likewise, 0% taxes gives a -0.33 modifier to consciousness, lowering it. So if you can get your POPs to have all their luxury needs at 100% taxes, you're laughing.

I guess keep your taxes as high as possible, tbh. I think also that social spending above 50% (once you have social reforms) reduces consciousness, so keep this low. And don't forget high plurality=high consciousness.

2) That's up to you. Clergymen decrease consciousness for:

• Soldiers
• Farmers
• Workers

And they increase it for:

• Aristocrats
• Capitalists
• Officers
• Clerks

They effect it by +/-0.25 per Clergymen POP. So, since you will have more poor than rich POPs, Clergymen will decrease your consciousness. But they are also invaluable for increasing literacy, which is a priority for most South American nations. Therefore it's up to you whether literacy outweighs immigration. Personally, I would go with immigration. Try to get the reforms as quickly as possible since you won't want to miss out on too much Clergy NF time.

 

[austrianemporer]

Ok guys, lately I've been getting back into Victoria 2 and have been trying to play as a South American country. I always wanted to relive the old days of liberalising a country on the South American continent and turning it into an immigrant powerhouse. Considering that South America shares an immigration bonus just like North America, I thought it would be the way to go.

Right now I am playing on HOD 3.03 and oh boy, I have not been successful at all. First I tried to play as Argentina starting in 1836. During that period, Argentina was under a Presidential Dictatorship that it only got rid of around the 1850s in OTL, I think. So I tried to play Argentina, tried to promote the liberal party for popularity points using my NF and yet consciousness fails to rise and the same old Presidential Dictatorship stays in power until the 1880s.

This was annoying me until I read about rebels so I thought, "why not?". First I let the Anarcho-Liberals take power in my capitol but that has no effect for me. Then I let the Reactionaries take power who lo and behold, install an absolute monarchy with which then I can install a Liberal Party and change the country towards a Democracy. Yet despite this change of government, there is no desire for social and political reforms with which to truly change the nation and so I gave up in the end.

Secondly, I tried Venezuela which starts out as a democracy in 1836. I used the NF for Clergymen to get the extra research and literacy points and even successfully got a liberal party into power. Yet consciousness starts to heavily decline and by the 1870s, there is no demand for social or political reforms. So I read and realised it was the Clergymen that was being problematic as they reduce consciousness so I decided not to focus on the NF for the Clergy and try again. I see at the start Venezuela has increasing consciouess. So a few days in, it starts to heavily decline, to a similar level I saw in my previous game.

I'm at a loss here. Just how can I successfully liberalise a South America nation and bring in the necessary social and political reforms with which to turn them into immigrant magnets? Or are they simply impossible to do at this stage due to various patches and expansions that have nerfed South America?

The NF merely increases Party Loyalty which affects how the party does in elections, it has no effect on ideology or the upper house which is needed to pass reforms. The only rebels which allow you to instantly liberalize your country are Jacobins. Other rebels install different types of dictatorships. The party in power has no effect on reforms.

Clergymen do decrease consciousness but they raise literacy so long term, they are a net consciousness contributor. You were right the first time, should've encouraged clergymen.

What I would do is encourage clergymen, declare war on my neighbors, lose, pass reforms, and strengthen my economy so my people are more laissez- faire.

 

[Ksim3000]

1) Well, as far as I know if your POPs are having their luxury needs met this will lead to an increase in consciousness. I'm not too sure on the exact effect of this, however. Also, taxes will increase your consciousness by (tax rate-33)/100, so 100% taxes=0.67 modifier to consciousness. Likewise, 0% taxes gives a -0.33 modifier to consciousness, lowering it. So if you can get your POPs to have all their luxury needs at 100% taxes, you're laughing.

I guess keep your taxes as high as possible, tbh. I think also that social spending above 50% (once you have social reforms) reduces consciousness, so keep this low. And don't forget high plurality=high consciousness.

2) That's up to you. Clergymen decrease consciousness for:

• Soldiers
• Farmers
• Workers

And they increase it for:

• Aristocrats
• Capitalists
• Officers
• Clerks

They effect it by +/-0.25 per Clergymen POP. So, since you will have more poor than rich POPs, Clergymen will decrease your consciousness. But they are also invaluable for increasing literacy, which is a priority for most South American nations. Therefore it's up to you whether literacy outweighs immigration. Personally, I would go with immigration. Try to get the reforms as quickly as possible since you won't want to miss out on too much Clergy NF time.

Thanks for the advice! Its certainly given me food for thought.

When it comes to taxes, I think this is where I went wrong. I focused on installing a liberal party into power which obviously cut my tax income for all pops by 50%. Next time I play, I will focus on just keeping a conservative party in and maxing the setting to 100%.

My question to taxation though is should I heavily tax all the POP social groups or just focus on one specific group?

Thanks for the tip about social spending, I'll remember that.

In your estimation, if I follow this route, what time frame are we looking at for decent social and political reforms along with immigration? Before the 1870s/1880s period? I'm asking for a rough guide on when to start using my NF for the clergy.

The NF merely increases Party Loyalty which affects how the party does in elections, it has no effect on ideology or the upper house which is needed to pass reforms. The only rebels which allow you to instantly liberalize your country are Jacobins. Other rebels install different types of dictatorships. The party in power has no effect on reforms.

Clergymen do decrease consciousness but they raise literacy so long term, they are a net consciousness contributor. You were right the first time, should've encouraged clergymen.

What I would do is encourage clergymen, declare war on my neighbors, lose, pass reforms, and strengthen my economy so my people are more laissez- faire.

So what you are saying is with the above discussed method in place, I should focus on Clergymen and losing wars in order to pass social reforms? Interesting. How much consciousness does losing a war net you?

 

[Flobalob]

Thanks for the advice! Its certainly given me food for thought.

When it comes to taxes, I think this is where I went wrong. I focused on installing a liberal party into power which obviously cut my tax income for all pops by 50%. Next time I play, I will focus on just keeping a conservative party in and maxing the setting to 100%.

My question to taxation though is should I heavily tax all the POP social groups or just focus on one specific group?

Thanks for the tip about social spending, I'll remember that.

In your estimation, if I follow this route, what time frame are we looking at for decent social and political reforms along with immigration? Before the 1870s/1880s period? I'm asking for a rough guide on when to start using my NF for the clergy.

I would tax only the lower class, perhaps the middle. This is because a) lower class is much more populous and therefore should have enough of an effect on its own and b) you want to be encouraging capitalists and aristocrats and ensuring they have funds so that you can begin to industrialize.

Tough question.. lots of other outside factors come into play so it varies, but in my experience you can have most reforms passed before 1890. That's not to say you can't have them passed before 1870 if you're lucky, but really between 1870-90 will likely be when you really start to spam the reforms.

For immigration, you'll also want to be a democracy (many SA nations start this way) as it makes you more attractive to immigrants. So, letting some Jacobin rebels win may not be a bad idea if you're not already. Also, you may want to spam elections whenever possible so that you can increase liberal support.

So what you are saying is with the above discussed method in place, I should focus on Clergymen and losing wars in order to pass social reforms? Interesting. How much consciousness does losing a war net you?

Quite a bit. This method will probably take a similar amount of time since literacy will take some time to build up. But it is simpler, and more sure-fire.

 

[Ksim3000]

I would tax only the lower class, perhaps the middle. This is because a) lower class is much more populous and therefore should have enough of an effect on its own and b) you want to be encouraging capitalists and aristocrats and ensuring they have funds so that you can begin to industrialize.

Tough question.. lots of other outside factors come into play so it varies, but in my experience you can have most reforms passed before 1890. That's not to say you can't have them passed before 1870 if you're lucky, but really between 1870-90 will likely be when you really start to spam the reforms.

For immigration, you'll also want to be a democracy (many SA nations start this way) as it makes you more attractive to immigrants. So, letting some Jacobin rebels win may not be a bad idea if you're not already. Also, you may want to spam elections whenever possible so that you can increase liberal support.


Quite a bit. This method will probably take a similar amount of time since literacy will take some time to build up. But it is simpler, and more sure-fire.

Okay, well I tried the new method out as Argentina to begin with. I thought about trying to topple the Presidential Dictatorship and lead the way to democracy. Unfortunately, consciousness always remained low and in the negative, never aspiring to much. Militancy though....militancy is where I started to shine. Taxing my poor and middle strata to 100% helped to increase militancy sufficiently but unfortunately it was just not enough to bring about any reforms.

So I resorted to in the end trying the "lose wars and gain militancy" method. This worked like a charm and brought my militancy into the 8.00 category! With two failed wars under my belt and several lost territories, I was about to politically reform the system, toss out the old Presidential Dictatorship and install a Democracy. As soon as I did this, immigrants from all over Europe and even Japan were flooding into Argentina which itself is good.

No improvement though on consciousness and a natural demand now for social reforms is still not taking effect. I'm hoping I can do this without having to lose another war but still, at least I am getting the suffragette events and militancy is rising quite naturally which is a good thing. The temperance league helps with this immensely.

I'm hoping that when I try a northern democratic South American nation next, the tips here for raising consciousness and militancy peacefully will be more a success. Argentina's problem is that blasted Presidential Dictatorship to begin with.

Anyway thanks for the help and I'll keep you guys posted if I have any more problems.

 

[Flobalob]

Okay, well I tried the new method out as Argentina to begin with. I thought about trying to topple the Presidential Dictatorship and lead the way to democracy. Unfortunately, consciousness always remained low and in the negative, never aspiring to much. Militancy though....militancy is where I started to shine. Taxing my poor and middle strata to 100% helped to increase militancy sufficiently but unfortunately it was just not enough to bring about any reforms.

So I resorted to in the end trying the "lose wars and gain militancy" method. This worked like a charm and brought my militancy into the 8.00 category! With two failed wars under my belt and several lost territories, I was about to politically reform the system, toss out the old Presidential Dictatorship and install a Democracy. As soon as I did this, immigrants from all over Europe and even Japan were flooding into Argentina which itself is good.

No improvement though on consciousness and a natural demand now for social reforms is still not taking effect. I'm hoping I can do this without having to lose another war but still, at least I am getting the suffragette events and militancy is rising quite naturally which is a good thing. The temperance league helps with this immensely.

I'm hoping that when I try a northern democratic South American nation next, the tips here for raising consciousness and militancy peacefully will be more a success. Argentina's problem is that blasted Presidential Dictatorship to begin with.

Anyway thanks for the help and I'll keep you guys posted if I have any more problems.

Could've tried to piss off the Jacobins. Jacobin victory in a dictatorship = democracy and liberals.

 

[Ksim3000]

Could've tried to piss off the Jacobins. Jacobin victory in a dictatorship = democracy and liberals.

For some reason I could not get any Jacobin rebels. None at all. The main rebel groups were reactionary. It was only after I became a democracy that Jacobin rebels started to form....

Is there anyway to encourage the formation of Jacobin rebels? If there is, I might re-try the game again and see if I can forment a Jacobin revolution....

 

[Flobalob]

For some reason I could not get any Jacobin rebels. None at all. The main rebel groups were reactionary. It was only after I became a democracy that Jacobin rebels started to form....

Is there anyway to encourage the formation of Jacobin rebels? If there is, I might re-try the game again and see if I can forment a Jacobin revolution....

You can't specifically encourage Jacobins without going very anti-liberal. Going a long time without passing reforms will usually start to bring them about.

If they're there but they just wont rise up in rebellion, it's likely because your military might is too strong (includes navy) so they feel as though they would be crushed. You'd have to disband your military somewhat so that they feel capable.