How to keep up with German industry?

[dfnehring]

Victoria 2 was long my least favourite Paradox game, but I am just starting to get into it. I have been playing as the UK, with all expansiosn and no mods. I have a basic understanding of the game mechanisms, but I still struggle with effective strategies for economic growth. A consistent pattern in the three games I have played over the last few weeks is that Germany will overtake me as no.1 industrial nation in the 1850s, as soon as the North German Federation is formed. How to counter this and stay on top of the industrial race?

For example, in my current game I have reached the year 1853, and the North German Federation has just overtaken my industry. To promote its development, I had:

1) Promoted clergy in key regions within the UK's home islands (Southeast, Midlands, etc.), shifting to bureaucrats once the share of clergy among the population had reached 4%.
2) Gradually raised the budgets for education and administration to 100%. They have been stable at this level since the late 1840s.
3) Invested in key industrial and commerce techs. I have 11 techs in each category so far.
4) Expanded my colonial holdings in India and the Arabian peninsula and built a large sphere of influence, including nations with important resources, for later colonial expansion.

And still this has not been enough. I would appreciate suggestions on how to do better.

 

[Phantomiux]

From Paradox Wiki:
Industrial score is based off how many factories a country have and how many are employed in them, and is usually lower than Military score or Prestige due to how long factories take to build and the fact, that uncivilized nations generally cannot build them. This score is a good indicator on how many factories a country have, and thus, how strong their economy is.
A country gets one Industrial point per 2500 employed craftsmen (or clerks) in factories. How much they actually produce does not have an effect on the score, so having employed craftsmen which don't do anything increases the score. A Great power does also get points, for factories invested in other smaller powers.


You wrote us long list what you actually did - but you didnt mention that you are upgrading your factories (means making factories bigger, lvl 1 can employ 10 000 guys / 4 Industrial points, lvl 2 makes jobs for 20 000 craftsmen and so on). Isn´t this your main problem?

If you have no idea what I am talking about - did you see that "+" button in factory screen left from number "1"?

 

[dfnehring]

Thank you. Insufficient factory upgrades may indeed have been the problem. I will keep playing and see whether this makes a difference.

 

[Woifee]

I usually invest plenty in minor cuntries industries and if that doesn't help crush Germany in wars.

 

[dfnehring]

Looking at my current game, I have realised that my comparative lack of industrial development does not seem to be due to me not upgrading factories enough. The problem is that my factories do not have a sufficiently large workforce to begin with. Most of my factories have only a small workforce, with most of the workforce icons under each factories black and worker numbers nowhere near the maximum when I hover the cursor over the workforce items.

What could the reasons for this be? I have been spending my national foci on promoting clergy to raise literacy, and I have gradually raised spending on education and administrative efficiency to 100%. What else could I do, given that I am running a laissez faire economy? Could it be that I am missing key technologies? If so, which? What else might be wrong?

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

Looking at my current game, I have realised that my comparative lack of industrial development does not seem to be due to me not upgrading factories enough. The problem is that my factories do not have a sufficiently large workforce to begin with. Most of my factories have only a small workforce, with most of the workforce icons under each factories black and worker numbers nowhere near the maximum when I hover the cursor over the workforce items.

What could the reasons for this be? I have been spending my national foci on promoting clergy to raise literacy, and I have gradually raised spending on education and administrative efficiency to 100%. What else could I do, given that I am running a laissez faire economy? Could it be that I am missing key technologies? If so, which? What else might be wrong?

Options/Reasons:
- Focus on craftsmen after having raised clergy and bureaucrats.
- Factories are not proftable enough, thus income for workers too low and there is better opportunities in RGOs.
- Having unemployed or low income RGOs helps to convince them to promote/demote to craftsmen.
- Factories don't sell enough and their input costs are to high (so get input cost reducing techs or more capitalists)
- As in the line above, get more capitalists, as they decerase input costs, so factories are mor efficient and earn more and depend less on sales number.
- If factories sell everthing they produce, get more railroads to increase output.

 

[Premu]

Laissez-faire is great at boosting your economy without the need to direct interventions from your side, but you need to make sure you let it happen.

First you need a fair taxation system. That means - set the taxes for the important rich people to 0%. This will give your capitalists more money to invest and open more factories. Tariffs should be set high to finance your expenses. The increases costs for imports might should not be that bad for Britain as you have a vast empire under your control which should provide most of the necessary things you need. Taxes for the poor and middle class should be enough so that you cover your expenses at least in peace time. Still you should try to not starve them, as they are your main consumers, and without any consumers the factories won't make profit and thus will not expand. In the beginning of the game you might end up with 50% taxes for both, but as your tax efficiency is pretty poor, they'll dodge most of it anyway. Later you might be able to reduce it to increase consumption.

Technologies are important, too - some give massive boosts to certain industries, other increase the production of raw materials significantly which you need for your factories.

Try to get large countries into your sphere of influence - they'll buy from you first increasing the profits of your factories instead those of other countries. And you get eays access to their raw materials on top of it!

 

[dfnehring]

Since I last posted in this thread, I have started a new game, again playing as the UK, to try out the strategies suggested above. I have also read through online guides on industrialisation (notably this one and the one on the official Victoria 2 Wiki). Nonetheless, by the 1850s, I have again fallen behind other countries in terms of industrialisation - this time Germany and France.

I am obviously making fundamental mistakes, given the UK's initial world-leading position. I do not understand what these mistakes might be; they way I play seems to match what is suggested in the online guides I have read. The only point that has come to my mind is that my sphere of influence might be a problem; it includes quite a number of countries, including large ones, most notably Egypt (but none of the Chinese states). I have attached a number of screenshots that show research and industrialisation in the UK in my current game. Technologically, I am ahead of all other countries, but industrial development has begun to lag badly.

Any suggestions?

 

[Aardvark Bellay]

..
Any suggestions?

- Picture three shows you have 12 factories less than the two above you.
- You are encouraging capitalists, despite alreadfy having a few, though you will need more craftsmen
to get more clerks, to get your capitalists in the end.
- Have you got the population growth techs from medicine tech by now ? (to get more pop for more craftsmen)
- I think you should invest in liquor and more into coats and luxury coats as you got silk and dye as UK.
- Have you got a machine tools factory ?

There is definitely more to say, but my headach returns...

 

[dfnehring]

I have some of the population growth techs at least. Technologically, I am ahead of both Germany and France, and this would not seem to explain lagging behind them in industrialisation. I do have machine tool factories as well.

As to investing in liquor and coats and luxury coats - how, since I am operating a laissez faire economy?

There must be a basic error to my strategy, but I fail to see it.

 

[Kovax]

Laissez-faire can be very powerful in the later stages of the game, but it takes a while to set up the underlying support industries to allow it to flourish. The UK is a tough nut in this case, because you really need at least a couple of years of more direct control before turning it over to the random craziness, and your government makes that difficult (but not impossible).

Once you've got solid support industries for cement, lumber, glass, machine parts, steel, cloth, and a few other essential intermediate goods, you can start building a few "finished goods" factories, such as Liquor, Luxury Furniture and Clothing, and so on. The "Cappies" will eventually upgrade them, and build new factories as well, but you need that solid foundation first, otherwise the economy will still be heavily dependent on importing the intermediate products, leading to "boom-bust" cycles and closed factories (which you can't reopen under L-F).

If you're playing the base game (without the two expansions), then France will get insane Industrial score increases from the heavily over-valued Luxury Clothing factories it will spam in quantity, since it has access to silk. Prussia/Germany typically have mountains of coal, which provide the raw materials for glass (you can never produce too much Liquor, after the first decade or two) and cement (an early hot commodity, but becomes a marginal seller at best in a couple of decades).

 

[dfnehring]

Thank you. That makes sense. I am playing with the two expansion installed. So, in my current game, what would be a viable strategy to keep up with Germany (the North German Federation, for now) and France, assuming that I will have to continue with laissez faire policies? Would investing in factories in key industries in countries within my sphere be a viable strategy, for example? What else might I do?

 

[Amtep]

You might have to look at the demand side of your production. Are you fully funding your army and navy? That encourages your factories that make military goods.

The UK is structurally at a bit of a disadvantage compared to Germany and France because so much of your population is in colonies, where you can't build factories. You also start with comparatively low literacy, which means fewer clerks. It might be that falling behind a bit is natural.

If you get really fed up with Germany, you can prevent the North German Federation from forming by sphering one of the countries it needs, or by outright conquering one. (Holstein is a good target, since you only need to fight Denmark for that one)

 

[Woifee]

You might have to look at the demand side of your production. Are you fully funding your army and navy? That encourages your factories that make military goods.

The UK is structurally at a bit of a disadvantage compared to Germany and France because so much of your population is in colonies, where you can't build factories. You also start with comparatively low literacy, which means fewer clerks. It might be that falling behind a bit is natural.

If you get really fed up with Germany, you can prevent the North German Federation from forming by sphering one of the countries it needs, or by outright conquering one. (Holstein is a good target, since you only need to fight Denmark for that one)

That’s not it. I can trump Germany as Austria.

 

[dfnehring]

I have made some progress since my last post, by switching the UK government to the reactonary (Tory) party around 1850, when conditions for basic industrialisation are starting to be in place. I use my national foci to encourage clergy and then craftsmen or clerks, and I then manually found factories in key basic industries, e.g. machine parts, cement, steel, etc. Technologially, I am ahead of both the North German Federation and France anyway. All this has so far allowed me to stay at the top in terms of my industrial ranking. I will see how this strategy plays out long term.

One question to consider here is how long to stay with reactonary rule and state capitalism, and when to switch back to laissez faire. Any suggestions?

 

[Kovax]

One question to consider here is how long to stay with reactonary rule and state capitalism, and when to switch back to laissez faire. Any suggestions?

That's a purely "play by ear" situation. It depends on the world market and the prices of goods, your own internal market, and a host of other factors. Either going L-F will give you a modest bonus and let you concentrate on other things, or else a lot of your industries will close due to foreign competition and poor management, and it's not always clear which will happen until later in the campaign when demand increases (and after that, the ability of pops to afford those goods begins to fall off). Note that you want taxes lower at that point, so your pops can afford to buy more of all those goods that you're producing.

 

[Amtep]

I'm not sure laissez faire is ever a good idea, because the capitalists are so very stupid in what they build and where. Like, yeah, they get a discount... so they can build another cement factory on Iceland or something. In one of my UK games, I ended up with six bankrupt factories on the Falkland Islands, which simply didn't have the population to support even one.

The primary advantage of laissez faire is that it's less micromanagement for you, so it's a good choice when your industry is strong enough that you don't have to care about it anymore.

 

[dfnehring]

I am doing a lot better now in keeping up with Germany and France. In my current game, I am in the mid-1860s, with the largest number of factories and an industrial score just slightly behind the North German Federation's and well ahead (by over 100 points) of France's. I am much more confident about the basic strength of my industry than when I originally posted this thread. What has done this for me is a switch, for about four years, to the reactonary Tories and state-led capitalism, to build up factories in basic industry sectors, once my population was able to sustrain this. Afterwards, I went with the Conservatives and interventionism, which works fine for me for the moment. I so far do not see a need to switch to laissez faire economics, and I am reluctant to do so, as it would greatly reduce my ability to manage my economy.

I have not had a lot of time to play in the last few day, but I will post again once I am a few more decades along.

 

[deanwebb]

Best way to keep up with German industry is to play as the USA.