How to keep a stronger junior partner in a PU

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Kagemin

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It's been quite a while since I last played, what are currently the best ways to keep a (much) stronger junior partner in a PU happy?

Playing as Ryazan I got a PU over Muscovy some 25 years in (event when my female heir took the throne), and they are still a fair bit more powerful than me. Even the -20% LD option for money is nowhere near enough.
Luckily there's a 5-year-truce in effect now, so what are my best options?
 

Dominion

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DoW Riga. Never occupy their capital. Never peace out.

Subjects don't declare indepence while you're at war and staying below 66% WS means you won't get called for pizza.
 

Lacost

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DoW Riga. Never occupy their capital. Never peace out.

Subjects don't declare indepence while you're at war and staying below 66% WS means you won't get called for pizza.

In addition you need to get sure that there are some casualties from time to time. If there is absolutely no fighting for a couple of years then an automatic white peace is signed.
 

Dominion

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In addition you need to get sure that there are some casualties from time to time. If there is absolutely no fighting for a couple of years then an automatic white peace is signed.

lolwut?

When?How?Why?Who comes up with that?
 

Lacost

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lolwut?

When?How?Why?Who comes up with that?

I experienced it myself when I tried to cheese off something similar like you proposed. I declared on some backwater african nation and never fought in the war whatsoever. Suddenly there was the message that I signed a white peace and then that's it. The nation still existed and was independent.

I'm not entirely sure if this has been changed over the years but in this link DDR Jake asks about it (2013):

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ce-after-several-years-of-no-conflict.722150/
 

Dominion

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I experienced it myself when I tried to cheese off something similar like you proposed. I declared on some backwater african nation and never fought in the war whatsoever. Suddenly there was the message that I signed a white peace and then that's it. The nation still existed and was independent.

I'm not entirely sure if this has been changed over the years but in this link DDR Jake asks about it (2013):

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...ce-after-several-years-of-no-conflict.722150/

At that point it is your duty to DoW Sweden and make sure Stockholm ends up with 100% devestation.

Thanks for the info. Never knew about that.
 

Rip Off Productions

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At that point it is your duty to DoW Sweden and make sure Stockholm ends up with 100% devestation.

Thanks for the info. Never knew about that.
I think that such a thing is to prevent AI from getting trapped in a stalemated war, with the fringe benefit of stopping you from cheesing you subjects inability to declare independence.
 

atwix

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It's been quite a while since I last played, what are currently the best ways to keep a (much) stronger junior partner in a PU happy?

Playing as Ryazan I got a PU over Muscovy some 25 years in (event when my female heir took the throne), and they are still a fair bit more powerful than me. Even the -20% LD option for money is nowhere near enough.
Luckily there's a 5-year-truce in effect now, so what are my best options?

slap diplomat on them. get dip tech up. max diplo reputation with advisors. max legitimacy.

farm prestige, as PU subjects get 1% ld for each point overlord is in negative prestige. -100 prestige is 100 LD in PU subject, so farm that prestige!

be at war constantly, and never be at peace for a day. Unions get -50 malus to declare independence if overlord (and them) are in a war.

If you own Cossacks dlc, you can conquer provinces near them, and then you can grant the conquered provinces with the subject window option. If the conquered provinces border them by land or sea zone, you can grant those provinces to them.
It will lower their liberty desire, and THEY got to attack the rebels that follow. Its a great way to weaken subjects.

And constant warfare (leading their armies around with 1k stack with attach on) will lower their army strength, which will all in all result in docile PU subjects.

If one of them goes above 50+% ld, then enable loyalist faction. You have to prevent PU subjects from allying, which they will do if one goes above 50%.

If someone supports their independence, then rival them and crush them with humiliate rival cb.
That's the best thing to do in 1.17. Keeping free rival slot for nations that support subject independence guarantees a CB to stomp those supporters the minute they support your PU subject independence.
 

Lacost

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And constant warfare (leading their armies around with 1k stack with attach on) will lower their army strength, which will all in all result in docile PU subjects.

Which doesn't work anymore on some occasions since somehow your 1k stack arrives 1 day earlier than the attached stack. Of course this results in a stackwipe for your 1k army and your vassal is again free to do its AI strategy.

Now I mostly stick to 5k mercenary armies to lead my allied troops to prevent those annoying stackwipes.
 

Palatinus Germanicus

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You sure blockades count?

I know for a fact they did in EU3, and supposedly the 'auto white peace mechanic' was transferred into EU4, as-is (as was?).

Auto white peace is definitely present in EU4, I see it happen to the A.I. fairly regularly (I have all peace deals show up as pop-ups). The message is the same one from EU3. I see probably at least 2 or 3 of these, every single game, sometimes more.

But as to your question, I do not know for certain if blockades reset the timer in EU4. I haven't tested it. But if I were forced to bet heavily on the matter, I'd feel confident that it's unchanged from EU3. A blockade is basically considered a 'hostile action' (act of war), just like a siege.

Realistically, though... if you siege down the enemy 100%, they're going to have some type of revolt within 5 years... peasants or something. If the peasants take a province, and then you take it back from the peasants... that counts, also. -It resets the timer... both times when control the of the province is transferred.
 

Kagemin

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Thanks for all the help so far. Staying at war from right before the truce runs out and giving them provinces seem like the best options so far (luckily both Novgorod and Kazan are available for the latter).

Prestige is luckily positive already, legitimacy took a hit from the average claim of the female heir though. Might have to invest some diplo power there.
30crrrt.jpg


Almost caught up in terms of unit, Muscovy is still one ahead of me though. Dunno how/if it counts her vassals though, the tooltip just says 18 compared to my 17. Going from the relative power I'm inclined to say it does count the vassals as well, might be tough to reach that.

Here's the overall situation right now:
s471g1.jpg
 

Dominion

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Horde nations are worthless fodder usually, but Kazan has a goldmine. Use them as your next DoW target, take as many provinces as possible yourself and use the gold to field an army strong enough to start eating towards Gazi to grab that sweet, sweet Persian trade income later in the game.

Only eat southern provinces of Novgorod (Neva area). You can core through a same-continent subject, so that should work out fine. Rest of them is 3dev bullcrap that isn't worth your time. You want to expand before Ottos get the chance to and it doesn't help you in your endeavor to control Muscovy anyways.
Maybe a war against Liv is advisable? Looks like they got a good bite there.

Grab CoTs and use all minors available (Circ, Shir, Tab, Gaz, GH, ...) to constantly stay at war. Occasionally buy down WE to avoid a collapse (occasionally!), give an update should Ottos share a border with you, let Georgie live to delay that one. Use trade+gold income to field a bigger army.

Supporting loyalists should actually suffice at that point.
 
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Palatinus Germanicus

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Who are your allies? From what I can see, you've just about got the same army size as them. So as long as you've got decent allies, I wouldn't live in total fear of them revolting. Just play normally. They'll probably have a hard time finding a major to support their independence (not many east slavic, ortho's that really love them that much)... just be careful who you rival.

As long as nothing goes horribly wrong diplomatically, you'll probably be OK.
 

Kagemin

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It felt like the calculations for relative strength we're really strange with Muscovy's vassals, but I guess it worked out in the end. Had to develop some of their grassland provinces a bit to get them happy early on (wanted to avoid anyone supporting them), past that it was going smoothly. Was actually surprised how easy it was in the end.
eq1flk.jpg


Having a tough time finding decent allies though, almost had Poland at one point but then they went and tried to claim my throne and then broke the royal marriage when that didn't work out. Working on Austria now, but no success so far. Actually considering supporting Sweden now, but that probably wouldn't be long-lived either...
 

Palatinus Germanicus

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You must've taken land from the Ottomans near Crimea? How else did they get that enclave? Or maybe that's all they got, by the time the 'free vassal' event fired. In any case, I'm gonna go ahead and say I don't like that border w/ the Ottomans. I'd almost be tempted to release a Sunni Crimea, and also give them Bahmut (or whatever that is), so you don't directly border them. Maybe even setup a march. And the same for Georgia, unless they're already owned by Ottomans.

Was the POL-LIT union established? In any case, your main focus ought to be to acquire the east-Slavic, (hopefully still) Orthodox lands of Lithuania. So (Poland, the leader) is really going to be your main source of food. So find people that hate Poland. HUN, AUS, BOH... something like that. Possibly even DEN. Protect yourself from the Ott's as best you can, and pray they don't have a militarist ruler for a long while.
 

Kagemin

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Yeah, I was almost finished with Crimea when the event fired for the Ottomans. I actually went ahead and rivalled them after that. :>
Poland did get the PU over Lithuania, as did Austria over Hungary. Main focus is on getting Austria to switch their stance from neutral towards me, but no success so far. If all else fails I'll just keep on expanding east, at the latest when I integrate Muscovy I should be able to deal with stuff on my own then.
 

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Yeah, probably so. Don't wait too long, though. Lithuania will eventually convert those provinces (which you should think of as 'yours') to Catholic. And depending on your conversion abilities, that might be a hassle. Especially if you've also got a lot of Sunni lands, further pulling the religious unity % down. Depending on how things go, humanist might not be a bad idea.

Humanist or religious... you're gonna have to go w/ one or the other.

You rivaled the Ottomans? Well, I guess they're not doing one of their hyper-aggressive starts... not really that strong yet. If you end up fighting them, rotate armies in & out of the battle, and have as much artillery as you can afford. And don't let them attack you in open terrain. Good luck.